End of blowout antics

[lukealex]

An ejection was discussed, but the T would have been my action. Although I didn't see the attempted push, my partner described it as deliberate, intentional, away from the ball (doesn't really matter), and not in any way a basketball motion.

Have to see it to really know what you would do, but that is my description of the play.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Junker

I agree that this player is not trying to be a basketball player, but are you sure you could sell intent to the coach or your assignor.

errr...yes I'm very sure. Not that your question is relevant, but I would be far more concerned having to explain letting A1 off with a warning in this play. Trust me in saying any assignor that has an issue with an ejection in this sitch is probably not worth taking games from.

[crazy voyager]

I'm warning you for blow-outs, I only have bad excperience from blow-outs.

I played two years ago in a cup. We won with 30 or 40 points. The other team had one player who consistently through out the game held, grabbed, pushed and acted unsportsmanlike in many manners. When he took one of our players at a rebound, and simply threw him out of the way. A minute later he was out of the game, he ran into a screen, the screener moved slightly, he fell over his hip into another players elbow (the elbow wasn't intentional though, not that it makes it less unsportsmanlike though).

THIS is what you get when you don't control the blow outs. We were fed up with this player, the officials didn't care, so we simply made life easier by taking him out of the game. I'm not proud of it, but as a player, I understand it. As a ref I think it was terrible by the officials not making sure to restrain this guy.

Control in blow-outs mean evrything no control=big trouble

[euby]

Flagrant Foul 4-19-4

A flagrant foul may be personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct. It may or may not be intentional. If personal, it involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as striking, kicking, and kneeing. If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar, or abusive conduct. Fighting is a flagrant act.

Fighting 4-18

Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or alive. Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as:
ART. 1...An attempt to strike, punch or kick an opponent with a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of weather contact is made.
ART. 2...An attempt to instigate a fight by commiting an unsporting act toward an opponent that cause an opponent to retaliate by fighting.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Junker

I agree that this player is not trying to be a basketball player, but are you sure you could sell intent to the coach or your assignor. This situation makes me think of the classic coaches line (I think it was Jimmy V) about "can you T me up for what I'm thinking, I think you suck". Tossing a player for this might be opening a can of worms you don't want to open. Trust me in saying that I enforce sportsmanship as much as anyone, but I would be more prone to try to manage this situation without an ejection.

The player demonstrated her intent for everybody to see. And I hate to say it, but if players are doing this in your game...you've got a wide open can of worms already.

[Junker]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

The player demonstrated her intent for everybody to see. And I hate to say it, but if players are doing this in your game...you've got a wide open can of worms already.

I agree, but if the officials had to discuss how to handle it after the game, it doesn't sound as though it were that blatant. Luckily I haven't had any extreme ugliness like this in a game (I'm knocking on my desk with both hands). My point in discussing this is that I would be wary to throw a player out of a game for what I think they are trying to do. I'm an official, not a mind reader. If it is that obvious, yeah the player needs to go, but as with a lot of situations, you have to be there to see it. Thanks for posting the rule Euby, I did remember, somewhat, the non-contact part, but wanted to read it word for word.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Junker

I agree that this player is not trying to be a basketball player, but are you sure you could sell intent to the coach or your assignor.

Selling intent to a coach is a non-issue. Worrying about selling anything to a coach aamof is a non-issue and something that an official should never, ever be concerned with. Worrying about what a coach thinks of a call should never be a part of officiating.

Assignors should be able to trust their official's judgement. I don't think that there's really any "sell" involved there either.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Junker

My point in discussing this is that I would be wary to throw a player out of a game for what I think they are trying to do. I'm an official, not a mind reader.

Then the other option is a "T" with no ejection. It's always a judgement call anyway, and a "T" should get the message across to the player that that type of crap isn't needed in the game. Simply saying "please don't do that" doesn't get the message across the same way imo, if you get a message across at all.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by Junker

I agree that this player is not trying to be a basketball player, but are you sure you could sell intent to the coach or your assignor. This situation makes me think of the classic coaches line (I think it was Jimmy V) about "can you T me up for what I'm thinking, I think you suck". Tossing a player for this might be opening a can of worms you don't want to open. Trust me in saying that I enforce sportsmanship as much as anyone, but I would be more prone to try to manage this situation without an ejection.

Actually, the Jimmy V line was, "I think you stink."

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by lukealex

Had a game last night which was a 40+ point blowout. Losing team started to get physical at the end of the game. We called EVERYTHING but to no avail.

Question is this: B1 ran at and tried to deliberately push A1. My partner told me this after the game and we debated on what to call. I believe a T would be the answer since no contract was made while the ball was live.

Comments?

I was working a state championship game last year and the game was already decided when one of the seniors for the losing team started looking to get more physical on one of the senior (headed for D1) players. Not that any of that mattered, but it was part of the game management. Anyway, the player started pushing more than what had gone on in the game to this point. I called it giving the player their 4th foul. The next trip down the floor they set up defensively and gave a high forearm to the cutter. I called the 5th foul and got the troublesome player out of the game. Coach for the team said he was just getting ready to pull the player and thanked me for taking care of it. A T wasn't needed or warranted in this situation, although further escalation would have.

Something that I learned at camp was go to the coach and tell the coach that this player is ruining the game and needs to come out. If the coach is unwilling to help, then if you think the actions warrant a T, then give it to them. A non-contact T especially a non-verbal unsportsmanlike T is hard for an assignor to defend.

FWIW

[rainmaker]

I disagree with the people who say warnings are never effective, but in the OP, I think it's too late for a warning. If you thing the player can calm down and finish the game in an appropriate manner, an intentional might be a good call. But if the player is really getting out of control, or if there are more players on the edge, and unsportsmanlike T if no contact would be a more forceful statement. There's definitely a huge amount of judgment needed, and I think it pays to have plenty of experience either from your own games, or from watching others'.

[zeke]

IMO, send a message and toss him for flagrant tech foul. You could rule it a fight. Either way you can't allow the players to make a joke out of the game. If you pass on this there will proably some reaction to it. If there wasn't consider yourself lucky. Referee dead ball situations are essences to your job. Actions ignore or gone unaddress will only manifest into uncontrollable episodes.