Illegal dribble?

[mick]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Sigh.

No mick, I didn't. I told you I couldn't see where intent had anything to do with this play. It's simply a judgment. Was he dribbling or passing? So where you get that I agreed with your intent statements, I have no idea, when I've made it clear that I don't. It's an easy judgment whether it's a dribble or a pass.

5 pages of posts later, the rule is still clear. If the defender bats the dribble with his hands, the dribble is ended, and the player can dribble again if he retains possession. Touching the foot does not end the dribble.

Okay.
Below is where I got confused.
mick

Originally Posted by mick

We have all seen a bounce pass (to a teammate) off a dribble.

If such a pass hits a defender's hand (legally), or other body part (head, chest, forearm, knee, foot) legally, the dribbler may recover and start a new dribble of the ball. Why? It is legal because the rules do not say it is illegal.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef
Mick, if the play is a pass, then I agree with you. But the original play was not a pass. It was a dribble. I believe that JAR is qualified enough to know the difference and when he specifically states it was a dribble, it's clear. After all, it is HIS play.

BktBallRef, I am glad that you agree to the point of the pass.
Yet my contention is that since the action is the very same, except for the presumed intent of the dribbler, I don't think we are permitted to incorporate our assumption as part of our decision making process.

[BktBallRef]

mick, I have no idea what it confuses you.

If I end my dribble, then pass the ball and it hits any part of your body, I can retrieve it and then dribble, shoot, or pass. (9-5-3)

If I dribble the ball and you bat it away with your hands, the dribble has ended and I can retrieve it and then dribble, shoot, or pass. (4-14-4d, 9-5-2)

If I dribble the ball and you touch it with any part of your body other than your hands, the dribble has not ended. I can retrieve it and continue to dribble, shoot, or pass. But I cannot pick the ball up and then begin to dribble again because I ended the dribble. (4-15-4 a through e)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

mick, I have no idea what it confuses you.

If I dribble the ball and you touch it with any part of your body other than your hands, the dribble has not ended. I can retrieve it and continue to dribble, shoot, or pass. But I cannot pick the ball up and then begin to dribble again because I ended the dribble. (4-15-4 a through e)

So......you're saying that even though your dribble might have touched 9 other players before you were able to touch it again, and the ball mighta gone from under your basket to under your opponent's basket, that whole sequence is still one continuous dribble?

Somehow, I don't think that I'm gonna buy that one.

[BktBallRef]

JR, if you have 9 defenders on the floor, then you have more issues than just not being able to understand this play.

Look up the term interrupted dribble in the rule book. Maybe that'll help you.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

JR, if you have 9 defenders on the floor, then you have more issues than just not being able to understand this play.

Look up the term interrupted dribble in the rule book. Maybe that'll help you.

How could an "interrupted dribble" be relevant to the question? The definition of an interrupted dribble says that the ball is loose after deflecting off the dribbler, not another player. There's no mention anywhere in the definition of an interrupted dribble about the ball going off another player. And, yes, I meant "player" and not "defender", both here and in the original question; "player" meaning any member of both teams on the court.

So again.....could you please answer my question?

If the dribbler, underneath his own basket, dribbled the ball off the foot of a defender or teammate beside him, and the ball then touched or was touched- but not controlled- by the 8 other players on the court, and the ball then ended up under the opponent's basket before the dribbler could catch up to it, do you also consider that as one continuous dribble?

[BktBallRef]

C'mon Woddy, you're better than that.

An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball
a) is loose after deflecting off the dribbler
b) or after it momentarily gets away from the dribbler.

A dribble does NOT have to deflect off the dribbler to be an interrupted dribble.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If the dribbler, underneath his own basket, dribbled the ball off the foot of a defender or teammate beside him, and the ball then touched or was touched- but not controlled- by the 8 other players on the court, and the ball then ended up under the opponent's basket before the dribbler could catch up to it, do you also consider that as one continuous dribble?

Until another player gains control of the ball or the ball is dead, it continues to be an interrupted dribble and Team A continues to have team control. You know that. That's not even close to being a reasonable argument.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

C'mon Woddy, you're better than that.

An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball
a) is loose after deflecting off the dribbler
b) or after it momentarily gets away from the dribbler.

A dribble does NOT have to deflect off the dribbler to be an interrupted dribble.



Until another player gains control of the ball or the ball is dead, it continues to be an interrupted dribble and Team A continues to have team control. You know that. That's not even close to being a reasonable argument.

Naw, I ain't better than that. I still don't think that you've got rules backing to make that illegal dribble call.

lI'll agree that there's still team control on the loose ball, but I contend that player control is also lost and a new player control is established if the original dribbler gets the loose ball after it touches other players. Not the same player control. I sureasheck also can't agree that that play meets the definition of an interrupted dribble. The definition of an interrupted dribble mentions it going off the dribbler only or momentarily getting away from the dribbler only. You're trying to add other criteria to that definition. And what criteria? If it can go off one other player than the dribbler and still be an interrupted dribble, why can't it go off 9 other players and move 80' down court and still be an interrupted dribble? There's no rules language anywhere differentiating between the two situations, is there?

The problem with this play is that it's simply not covered definitively, rules-wise.

Btw, Woddy?

[mick]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

So......you're saying that even though your dribble might have touched 9 other players before you were able to touch it again, and the ball mighta gone from under your basket to under your opponent's basket, that whole sequence is still one continuous dribble?

Somehow, I don't think that I'm gonna buy that one.

JR,
It seems if the ball hits more than one player in the foot, the dribble still hasn't ended and one should just ignore it and worry about something else.
mixk