Illegal dribble?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

That's your wording, not the rule book's. If it touches anyone else, opponent, ref, teammate, at any body part, player control is lost, the dribble is gone and the former dribbler is entitled to a new dribble.

Camron made a great catch on this. As worded here this is a common basketball myth, I'm amazed when above kiddy ball a player will look at me in disbelief and shock when he restarts his dribble after an opponent merely touches the ball and I blow the whistle. But it happens, and my response is always to smile and say "You are kidding me, right?"

[rainmaker]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
That's your wording, not the rule book's. If it touches anyone else, opponent, ref, teammate, at any body part, player control is lost, the dribble is gone and the former dribbler is entitled to a new dribble.

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Camron made a great catch on this. As worded here this is a common basketball myth, I'm amazed when above kiddy ball a player will look at me in disbelief and shock when he restarts his dribble after an opponent merely touches the ball and I blow the whistle. But it happens, and my response is always to smile and say "You are kidding me, right?"

Hmmm.....

Well, I can't find what I thought I'd seen in the past, namely a rule that says that if the ball touches another player, then a new dribble is allowed. So let me get this straight. A1 is dribbling. She bats the ball down, it hits the foot of B1 and bounces away. Okay, now A1 can continue the dribble if she uses only one hand, and only the dribbling action, right? Or she can retrieve the ball with two hands, but she then gets no more dribble, right? But she can't "pick the ball up" and then "continue" the dribble, as described by the OP?

Now what about the play where A1 is holding the ball having already dribbled, and then ended her dribble, and she then bounces it off the back or leg of an opponent and then gets the ball and dribbles? Is this different?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Quote:


Hmmm.....

Well, I can't find what I thought I'd seen in the past, namely a rule that says that if the ball touches another player, then a new dribble is allowed.

The relevant play is A1 picks up his dribble, B1 comes up & slaps, grabs or in some other way makes contact with the ball without A1 losing control of the ball. The myth, which you support in the way you originally worded your post and again here, is that A1 can now start a new dribble. He cannot.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
Now what about the play where A1 is holding the ball having already dribbled, and then ended her dribble, and she then bounces it off the back or leg of an opponent and then gets the ball and dribbles? Is this different?

Tony? Camron? Dan? JAR?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Tony? Camron? Dan? JAR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
Now what about the play where A1 is holding the ball having already dribbled, and then ended her dribble, and she then bounces passes it off the back or leg of an opponent and then gets the ball and dribbles? Is this different?

I hope this answers your question.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
Now what about the play where A1 is holding the ball having already dribbled, and then ended her dribble, and she then bounces it off the back or leg of an opponent and then gets the ball and dribbles? Is this different?

A1 dribbled, ended his dribble, started another dribble, and you don't know what the call is?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

A1 dribbled, ended his dribble, started another dribble, and you don't know what the call is?

Why can't bouncing it off another player, whether that player is a teammate or a defender, be ruled a "pass"? Rule 9-5-3 just sez "touched or been touched by another player". If you bounced a ball off of a teammate, could you dribble again? Rule 9-5-3 says so, doesn't it?

And the definition of a pass in R4-31 specifies "another player" too. It doesn't differentiate between a teammate and an opponent.

[Jimgolf]

So the consensus is that it's a double dribble, or a fumble, or nothing, or something.

Now I've got this rule down cold.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

So the consensus is that it's a double dribble, or a fumble, or nothing, or something.

Now I've got this rule down cold.

Consensus is in the eye of the beholder.

Got it now?

[mick]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Why can't bouncing it off another player, whether that player is a teammate or a defender, be ruled a "pass"? Rule 9-5-3 just sez "touched or been touched by another player". If you bounced a ball off of a teammate, could you dribble again? Rule 9-5-3 says so, doesn't it?

And the definition of a pass in R4-31 specifies "another player" too. It doesn't differentiate between a teammate and an opponent.

Reprint from pg. one:

The ball that bounced off the defender's foot is merely a live and loose ball last touched by a defender.

We have all seen a bounce pass (to a teammate) off a dribble.

If such a pass hits a defender's hand (legally), or other body part (head, chest, forearm, knee, foot) legally, the dribbler may recover and start a new dribble of the ball. Why? It is legal because the rules do not say it is illegal.

[A player, in control (holding, dribbling), who is trapped by two defenders for 4 seconds, bounces the ball off one of the defenders' foot, or leg, and retrieves the ball may dribble. Yes?]

Thus, the action of the dribbled ball accidentally, or intentionally, legally hitting an opponent's foot during the bounce pass and during the dribble are the same. The ball is loose, no player control, and the only way these actions could be adjudged to differ would be in the mind of the official.

mick

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by mick

Reprint from pg. one:

The ball that bounced off the defender's foot is merely a live and loose ball last touched by a defender.

We have all seen a bounce pass (to a teammate) off a dribble.

If such a pass hits a defender's hand (legally), or other body part (head, chest, forearm, knee, foot) legally, the dribbler may recover and start a new dribble of the ball. Why? It is legal because the rules do not say it is illegal.

[A player, in control (holding, dribbling), who is trapped by two defenders for 4 seconds, bounces the ball off one of the defenders' foot, or leg, and retrieves the ball may dribble. Yes?]

Thus, the action of the dribbled ball accidentally, or intentionally, legally hitting an opponent's foot during the bounce pass and during the dribble are the same. The ball is loose, no player control, and the only way these actions could be adjudged to differ would be in the mind of the official.

mick

Just for the record, I agreed with you on page 1 too.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by mick

Reprint from pg. one:

The ball that bounced off the defender's foot is merely a live and loose ball last touched by a defender.

We have all seen a bounce pass (to a teammate) off a dribble.

If such a pass hits a defender's hand (legally), or other body part (head, chest, forearm, knee, foot) legally, the dribbler may recover and start a new dribble of the ball. Why? It is legal because the rules do not say it is illegal.

[A player, in control (holding, dribbling), who is trapped by two defenders for 4 seconds, bounces the ball off one of the defenders' foot, or leg, and retrieves the ball may dribble. Yes?]

Thus, the action of the dribbled ball accidentally, or intentionally, legally hitting an opponent's foot during the bounce pass and during the dribble are the same. The ball is loose, no player control, and the only way these actions could be adjudged to differ would be in the mind of the official.

mick

Mick, if the play is a pass, then I agree with you. But the original play was not a pass. It was a dribble. I believe that JAR is qualified enough to know the difference and when he specifically states it was a dribble, it's clear. After all, it is HIS play.

[mick]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Mick, if the play is a pass, then I agree with you. But the original play was not a pass. It was a dribble. I believe that JAR is qualified enough to know the difference and when he specifically states it was a dribble, it's clear. After all, it is HIS play.

BktBallRef,
I am glad that you agree to the point of the pass.
Yet my contention is that since the action is the very same, except for the presumed intent of the dribbler, I don't think we are permitted to incorporate our assumption as part of our decision making process.

Perhaps you could help me find another example, other than intentional fouls, where we are allowed to judge intent. If we start using "presumed intent" in rare instances, we are going to be all over the board with the resulting calls.
mick

[just another ref]

whole thing, but I remembered the whole story. The play in question occured during a 11-12 year old boys scrimmage. I was coaching one of the teams and calling the game by myself from the center of the floor. Other team point guard dribbled the ball off my players foot. He sprinted all the way across the court and recovered the ball at the sideline with two hands. He started a new dribble and about this time I saw that he had stepped on the sideline. I whistled the play dead and told the other coach (the player's dad) "Out of bounds, and that would have been a double dribble anyway."
He immediately said, like others here, "No! Not if the defense touched it." There was no question of this being called a pass. I told him I thought I was right but would double check the rule. I really don't remember if I checked on it at the time or not, but it has never come up again that I recall until now, and only in discussion this time.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Mick, if the play is a pass, then I agree with you. But the original play was not a pass. It was a dribble. I believe that JAR is qualified enough to know the difference and when he specifically states it was a dribble, it's clear. After all, it is HIS play.

Still don't matter. You still don't have a rules citation that says it is illegal. Rule 9-5 doesn't say one way or another. It's simply not definitively covered in the rules.