Illegal dribble?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, that's what 9-5-3 reads in my book too.

Sequence
Dribble
Fumble deflected by an opponent
Dribble ends
Recovery by A1
Dribble again legally

Your sequence is wrong and self-serving. The fumble touched by an opponent ended the dribble. The dribble did not end before the touching. That's why it's legal for A1 to dribble again. That's why I still disagree.

Self serving? LOL!

Please explain to me how a dribbler can fumble the ball.

Only a player that is holding the ball can fumble.

There is no fumble when a ball is dribbled off the opponent's foot or any other time a ball is being dribbled.

This maybe the worst argument you have ever made on these boards.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
Now what about the play where A1 is holding the ball having already dribbled, and then ended her dribble, and she then bounces it off the back or leg of an opponent and then gets the ball and dribbles? Is this different?

A1 dribbled, ended his dribble, started another dribble, and you don't know what the call is?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

1) Please explain to me how a dribbler can fumble the ball.

2) This maybe the worst argument you have ever made on these boards.

1) NFHS rule 4-15-5- Interrupted dribble.

2) Give me time. I'll make more.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

A1 dribbled, ended his dribble, started another dribble, and you don't know what the call is?

Why can't bouncing it off another player, whether that player is a teammate or a defender, be ruled a "pass"? Rule 9-5-3 just sez "touched or been touched by another player". If you bounced a ball off of a teammate, could you dribble again? Rule 9-5-3 says so, doesn't it?

And the definition of a pass in R4-31 specifies "another player" too. It doesn't differentiate between a teammate and an opponent.

[Jimgolf]

So the consensus is that it's a double dribble, or a fumble, or nothing, or something.

Now I've got this rule down cold.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

So the consensus is that it's a double dribble, or a fumble, or nothing, or something.

Now I've got this rule down cold.

Consensus is in the eye of the beholder.

Got it now?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) NFHS rule 4-15-5- Interrupted dribble.

2) Give me time. I'll make more.

1) Now you're just being silly and obviously egging this on.

How is an interrupted dribble "the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player's grasp." A player who is dribbling is not grasping the ball. Okay, you got me...you're wrong and you know it.

2) LOL!

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Why can't bouncing it off another player, whether that player is a teammate or a defender, be ruled a "pass"? Rule 9-5-3 just sez "touched or been touched by another player". If you bounced a ball off of a teammate, could you dribble again? Rule 9-5-3 says so, doesn't it?

And the definition of a pass in R4-31 specifies "another player" too. It doesn't differentiate between a teammate and an opponent.

That's almost as funny as saying an interrupted dribble is a fumble.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

That's almost as funny as saying an interrupted dribble is a fumble.

OK, the dribbler was trying to pass the ball off his opponent's foot.

Got any rule(s) that can over-rule the direct language of R9-5-3 though? That rule says that it's not an illegal second dribble if the dribbler lost control after a pass touched or was touched by another player. A player is any of the 5 team members of each team who are legally on the floor. The definition of a "pass" also specifies that it has to be at a "player", not a "teammate". Ergo, if the dribbler passes the ball at any player on the floor, and the ball then touches or is touched by that player, the original passer can go get the ball, pick it up and legally dribble.

Rules citation if you think differently.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Why can't bouncing it off another player, whether that player is a teammate or a defender, be ruled a "pass"? Rule 9-5-3 just sez "touched or been touched by another player". If you bounced a ball off of a teammate, could you dribble again? Rule 9-5-3 says so, doesn't it?

And the definition of a pass in R4-31 specifies "another player" too. It doesn't differentiate between a teammate and an opponent.

Reprint from pg. one:

The ball that bounced off the defender's foot is merely a live and loose ball last touched by a defender.

We have all seen a bounce pass (to a teammate) off a dribble.

If such a pass hits a defender's hand (legally), or other body part (head, chest, forearm, knee, foot) legally, the dribbler may recover and start a new dribble of the ball. Why? It is legal because the rules do not say it is illegal.

[A player, in control (holding, dribbling), who is trapped by two defenders for 4 seconds, bounces the ball off one of the defenders' foot, or leg, and retrieves the ball may dribble. Yes?]

Thus, the action of the dribbled ball accidentally, or intentionally, legally hitting an opponent's foot during the bounce pass and during the dribble are the same. The ball is loose, no player control, and the only way these actions could be adjudged to differ would be in the mind of the official.

mick

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Quote:
Now what about the play where A1 is holding the ball having already dribbled, and then ended her dribble, and she then bounces it off the back or leg of an opponent and then gets the ball and dribbles? Is this different?

That bounce is defined to be a pass. Player control was lost. It touched another player. New dribble OK. A1 does so at the risk of A1 catching the ball.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by mick

Reprint from pg. one:

The ball that bounced off the defender's foot is merely a live and loose ball last touched by a defender.

We have all seen a bounce pass (to a teammate) off a dribble.

If such a pass hits a defender's hand (legally), or other body part (head, chest, forearm, knee, foot) legally, the dribbler may recover and start a new dribble of the ball. Why? It is legal because the rules do not say it is illegal.

[A player, in control (holding, dribbling), who is trapped by two defenders for 4 seconds, bounces the ball off one of the defenders' foot, or leg, and retrieves the ball may dribble. Yes?]

Thus, the action of the dribbled ball accidentally, or intentionally, legally hitting an opponent's foot during the bounce pass and during the dribble are the same. The ball is loose, no player control, and the only way these actions could be adjudged to differ would be in the mind of the official.

mick

Just for the record, I agreed with you on page 1 too.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Tony agrees with me. My existence is now somehow justified. Thanks to all for your attention to this matter.

So my support for your position way back on page one of this thread did nothing for you? I'm so hurt.

All we can conclude at this time is that if A1's action is judged by the official to be a pass or a fumble (which then touches another player) he may dribble a second time. If whatever he does with the ball isn't a pass or a fumble, then this would result in a double dribble violation.

JR thinks that the original play is a fumble. I don't.
Some others have stated that it qualifies as a pass. I don't think so.

However, the play rainmaker asked about in which A1 is trapped after using his dribble and therefore throws or bounces the ball off an opponent does meet the definition of a pass.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

All we can conclude at this time is that if A1's action is judged by the official to be a pass or a fumble (which then touches another player) he may dribble a second time. If whatever he does with the ball isn't a pass or a fumble, then this would result in a double dribble violation.

That pretty much sums 'er up.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

So my support for your position way back on page one of this thread did nothing for you? I'm so hurt.

Your support was very helpful. Without it I probably would have decided early "I'm wrong." BUT, as is often the case here, Tony seemed to have the final word. Once he said I, pardon me, we, were right, the original sit died and the argument skewed off in other directions.

All we can conclude at this time is that if A1's action is judged by the official to be a pass or a fumble (which then touches another player) he may dribble a second time. If whatever he does with the ball isn't a pass or a fumble, then this would result in a double dribble violation.

Shazam! That's what I said all along.

JR thinks that the original play is a fumble.

Nah

Some others have stated that it qualifies as a pass.

No way

However, the play rainmaker asked about in which A1 is trapped after using his dribble and therefore throws or bounces the ball off an opponent does meet the definition of a pass.

Totally different situation

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by mick

Reprint from pg. one:

The ball that bounced off the defender's foot is merely a live and loose ball last touched by a defender.

We have all seen a bounce pass (to a teammate) off a dribble.

If such a pass hits a defender's hand (legally), or other body part (head, chest, forearm, knee, foot) legally, the dribbler may recover and start a new dribble of the ball. Why? It is legal because the rules do not say it is illegal.

[A player, in control (holding, dribbling), who is trapped by two defenders for 4 seconds, bounces the ball off one of the defenders' foot, or leg, and retrieves the ball may dribble. Yes?]

Thus, the action of the dribbled ball accidentally, or intentionally, legally hitting an opponent's foot during the bounce pass and during the dribble are the same. The ball is loose, no player control, and the only way these actions could be adjudged to differ would be in the mind of the official.

mick

Mick, if the play is a pass, then I agree with you. But the original play was not a pass. It was a dribble. I believe that JAR is qualified enough to know the difference and when he specifically states it was a dribble, it's clear. After all, it is HIS play.