Illegal dribble?

[mick]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

And I think that you're wrong that this play meets the definition of a fumble.

What's your point?

I don't see the fumble relationship either, but then you guys were posting so early in the morning, I'm surprised you could find the monitor.
mick

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

And I think that you're wrong that this play meets the definition of a fumble.

What's your point?

My point is "Detente is lacking".

[just another ref]

I'm sure that I am lacking detente, but I don't speak Italian so I don't really know what that means. I do think that it is significant that several people that I consider very knowledgeable cannot put their finger on a passage which says this is not a violation. I may be wrong in my interpretation, but now I at least feel that this was not a dumb question.

[Camron Rust]

This is an interrupted dribble not because of it deflecting off the dribbler but because of the next part...."or after it momentarily gets away from the dribbler".

I do not agree with rainmaker's statement ...

If it touches anyone else, opponent, ref, teammate, at any body part, player control is lost, the dribble is gone and the former dribbler is entitled to a new dribble.

The mere fact that it touches someone else does not end player control. The new dribble is warranted only if it player control itself is lost. The dribble does not end merely by the ball touching an opponent...the opponent must do more than be touched by the ball...they must bat it, grab it, etc. It means absolutely if it brushes the defenders leg as the dribbler goes by such that the dribble is unaffected.

The rule (from an older book) about when a player can dribble again.

A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he or she has lost control because of:

ART. 1 . . . A try for field goal.

ART. 2 . . . A bat by an opponent.

ART. 3 . . . A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player.

Taken literally, you could read this to say that a player could not dribble at any point in the game after an interrupted dribble until they once again held the ball and lost control by one of the above actions.

However, by common convention (i.e., in determining whether a bounced ball that goes to a teammate is a pass or a dribble), a ball that goes to another player is assumed to be a pass, even if the intent was otherwise.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

That's your wording, not the rule book's. If it touches anyone else, opponent, ref, teammate, at any body part, player control is lost, the dribble is gone and the former dribbler is entitled to a new dribble.

The ref is part of the floor and would not be part of the things the ball can touch to enable a second dribble.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I do think that it is significant that several people that I consider very knowledgeable cannot put their finger on a passage which says this is not a violation.

And, conversely, no one can definitively put their finger on a passage that says it is a violation.

All I can tell you from my own experience is that this has not been called a violation by anyone, as far as I know, since the beginning of time. Iow, the expected call is a "no call", and that is what is generally taught. Note the words "my own experience" though. That's the variable.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And, conversely, no one can definitively put their finger on a passage that says it is a violation.

All I can tell you from my own experience is that this has not been called a violation by anyone, as far as I know, since the beginning of time. Iow, the expected call is a "no call", and that is what is generally taught. Note the words "my own experience" though. That's the variable.

The expected call is a "no call" ?
Agreed.
The Rule book and Case book obviously "no-called" it, too.
mick

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

This is an interrupted dribble not because of it deflecting off the dribbler but because of the next part...."or after it momentarily gets away from the dribbler".

I do not agree with rainmaker's statement ...


The mere fact that it touches someone else does not end player control. The new dribble is warranted only if it player control itself is lost. The dribble does not end merely by the ball touching an opponent...the opponent must do more than be touched by the ball...they must bat it, grab it, etc. It means absolutely if it brushes the defenders leg as the dribbler goes by such that the dribble is unaffected.

The rule (from an older book) about when a player can dribble again.

A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he or she has lost control because of:

ART. 1 . . . A try for field goal.

ART. 2 . . . A bat by an opponent.

ART. 3 . . . A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player.
Taken literally, you could read this to say that a player could not dribble at any point in the game after an interrupted dribble until they once again held the ball and lost control by one of the above actions.

However, by common convention (i.e., in determining whether a bounced ball that goes to a teammate is a pass or a dribble), a ball that goes to another player is assumed to be a pass, even if the intent was otherwise.

Agreed.

9-5-3 must be different in some of your books than it is in mine. My book reads:

A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player.

Sequence:
Dribble
Dribble ends
Fumble or pass deflected by an opponent
Recovery by A1
Dribble again legally

The rule refers to a dribble that has ended and a pass or fumble is THEN touched by an opponent. A1 can retrieve the ball and dribble again. You can't fumble a ball while dribbling it.

Touching B1's foot does NOT end the dribble. Touching B1's foot does NOT constitue a bat. If someone thinks so, I would really like to read the rule. (I'll be happy to point out the definition of a bat if anyone can't find it. )

Bottom line JAR, if he picks the ball up and ends again, "Double Dribble."

[just another ref]

Tony agrees with me. My existence is now somehow justified. Thanks to all for your attention to this matter.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

That's your wording, not the rule book's. If it touches anyone else, opponent, ref, teammate, at any body part, player control is lost, the dribble is gone and the former dribbler is entitled to a new dribble.

Camron made a great catch on this. As worded here this is a common basketball myth, I'm amazed when above kiddy ball a player will look at me in disbelief and shock when he restarts his dribble after an opponent merely touches the ball and I blow the whistle. But it happens, and my response is always to smile and say "You are kidding me, right?"

[rainmaker]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
That's your wording, not the rule book's. If it touches anyone else, opponent, ref, teammate, at any body part, player control is lost, the dribble is gone and the former dribbler is entitled to a new dribble.

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Camron made a great catch on this. As worded here this is a common basketball myth, I'm amazed when above kiddy ball a player will look at me in disbelief and shock when he restarts his dribble after an opponent merely touches the ball and I blow the whistle. But it happens, and my response is always to smile and say "You are kidding me, right?"

Hmmm.....

Well, I can't find what I thought I'd seen in the past, namely a rule that says that if the ball touches another player, then a new dribble is allowed. So let me get this straight. A1 is dribbling. She bats the ball down, it hits the foot of B1 and bounces away. Okay, now A1 can continue the dribble if she uses only one hand, and only the dribbling action, right? Or she can retrieve the ball with two hands, but she then gets no more dribble, right? But she can't "pick the ball up" and then "continue" the dribble, as described by the OP?

Now what about the play where A1 is holding the ball having already dribbled, and then ended her dribble, and she then bounces it off the back or leg of an opponent and then gets the ball and dribbles? Is this different?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Quote:


Hmmm.....

Well, I can't find what I thought I'd seen in the past, namely a rule that says that if the ball touches another player, then a new dribble is allowed.

The relevant play is A1 picks up his dribble, B1 comes up & slaps, grabs or in some other way makes contact with the ball without A1 losing control of the ball. The myth, which you support in the way you originally worded your post and again here, is that A1 can now start a new dribble. He cannot.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

9-5-3 must be different in some of your books than it is in mine. My book reads:

A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended unless it is after he/she has lost control because of
A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player.

Sequence:
Dribble
Dribble ends
Fumble or pass deflected by an opponent
Recovery by A1
Dribble again legally

Yup, that's what 9-5-3 reads in my book too.

Sequence
Dribble
Fumble deflected by an opponent
Dribble ends
Recovery by A1
Dribble again legally

Your sequence is wrong and self-serving. The fumble touched by an opponent ended the dribble. The dribble did not end before the touching. That's why it's legal for A1 to dribble again. That's why I still disagree.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
Now what about the play where A1 is holding the ball having already dribbled, and then ended her dribble, and she then bounces it off the back or leg of an opponent and then gets the ball and dribbles? Is this different?

Tony? Camron? Dan? JAR?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Tony? Camron? Dan? JAR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
Now what about the play where A1 is holding the ball having already dribbled, and then ended her dribble, and she then bounces passes it off the back or leg of an opponent and then gets the ball and dribbles? Is this different?

I hope this answers your question.