Incidental contact

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That is certainly true in the NFHS game, but as I wrote above it is NOT the case in the NCAA.

We might need to make a distinction between Men's and Women's basketball. I know this is a sensitive issue for many, but there is a difference in many philosophies and contact is one of them. Having attended a couple of camps personally that D1 Men's assignors run, I do have a little insight on what they told us. I have never heard of this being a definite foul. I do remember officials being credited for not calling cheap foul calls on defensive players when they did not initiate contact.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Again, I can't say for sure because I don't work that level of ball, but from what I hear 99% of the time that is the way those guys and gals call it up there. It doesn't really matter whether we agree with it or not. Certainly no one is consulting me!

I do not work that level either. I may one day have a shot, but only time will tell. From what I have learned in attending camps and working with D1 officials at HS camps, I have not heard any one say this needed to be called. Also, the OPer tried to suggest that a "certain part of the country" used this philosophy and have benefited and got to the NBA. Well that is not so true anymore. The system that was used in the ACC and SEC is no longer. Both conferences had completely different supervisors (because of some scandal in one case). So the NBA friendly mechanics and philosophies do not apply like they used to.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Rut,
My comment that you just quoted was in the context of a defender lying on the floor and the offensive player trips over him. It was about that specific play and the AR the NCAA provides for it stating that this is a blocking foul. That's all I was saying to JR there. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by MPLAHE

Have you ever NOT called a foul on the defense when a defender trips the opposing player dribbling the ball. I had a call recently where the offensive player (girls) was running down court and the defender was not really putting any pressure on her and their legs got tangled and the offensive player stumbled and lost possession. I passed on the potential foul, because I felt it was simply incidental contact. I was just wondering if any of you ever made an interpretation like this or do you automatically call that a foul on the defense.

I'd have to be there to see it, of course. But from the description I'd have to say I'd probably call it unless the offensive player initiated the contact. To me this seems like a pretty clear case of "call the obvious." I'd have to have a pretty good reason not to call this.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I can't speak for them, but every indication that I've had from them makes me believe that, yes, the assignors and conference coordinators want the call made that way.

Well, I've been told the complete opposite, also including conversations with assignors and conference coordinators. They want each call to be decided on it's own merits, and it's never automatically anything.

Just gonna have to disagree on this one.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have never heard of this being a definite foul. I do remember officials being credited for not calling cheap foul calls on defensive players when they did not initiate contact.

That's my understanding too.

Originally Posted by REFVA

By the explanation of the poster, I would not have called it. Yet I can only imagine the defender was probably riding the offensive player and mostly likely the contact might have not been incidental. Yet keep in mind incidental contact if the offense was not put at a disadvantage. which in this case it sound like the offense lost the ball. I would have liked to see the play, Positioning as always means a lot. seeing from different angles will defenitely give you a better call.

Here is what I observed. the offensive player was dribbling up the right side of the court just entering the frontcourt. I was the trail coming up just behind the play. The defender was running alongside on the left and really not making a play on the ball when the their feet brushed together and the offensive player stumbled and lost the ball. I explained to the quite upset coach of the offense that it was incidental contact. He told me if the offensive player is tripped, it has to be a foul. I disagreed - he said I was clueless - his opponents got to shoot two foul shots.

I do agree with a previous poster who said its much easier to explain the foul than the no-call.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by MPLAHE

I disagreed - he said I was clueless - his opponents got to shoot two foul shots.

As noted here, the penalty for not calling this a foul is two shots and the ball at the division line.

[btaylor64]

Gentlemen I don't post here to argue, and I barely post to debate a topic, nor do I post anything that is my own personal opinion. Everything I post I have taken from some very high level officials, and I assume that to be the best you have to learn from the best and that is just what I am doing and trying to express here.

Jurassic Referee I understand what you are meaning in replying to my post. I believe you are saying that almost always is too much and that I'm saying that a trip or tangle of feet is always a foul. I am not saying that and I shouldn't have used 99% as how much I call this. I agree 100% with you about each play having its own merit and should be judged as such, but like someone said earlier it is a whole lot easier to sell a trip foul than to no call a trip foul. Are there going to be plays where two players are next to each other and the offensive player just trips themselves? Sure there are, and that is why you have to have a high level of concentration at all times.


MPLAHE,

From the play you described, I have a tripping foul. Don't try to think too hard into the defender having LGP and therefore leaving the onus on the dribbler. they are both side by side meaning that the offensive player has his head and shoulders past the defender. If the kids' feet get tangled up don't be afraid to blow the whistle. I would much rather go to the team of the defensive player's coach and tell him I blew it rather than going to the irate offensive team's coach and trying to sell him that I got the call right or even go over and tell him I missed it because he is going to tell you yeah he and everybody else saw that you missed it too. Whack!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

1) Everything I post I have taken from some very high level officials, and I assume that to be the best you have to learn from the best and that is just what I am doing and trying to express here.

2) Jurassic Referee I understand what you are meaning in replying to my post. I believe you are saying that almost always is too much and that I'm saying that a trip or tangle of feet is always a foul. I am not saying that and I shouldn't have used 99% as how much I call this. I agree 100% with you about each play having its own merit and should be judged as such, but like someone said earlier it is a whole lot easier to sell a trip foul than to no call a trip foul. Are there going to be plays where two players are next to each other and the offensive player just trips themselves? Sure there are, and that is why you have to have a high level of concentration at all times.

1) Btaylor, saying that "very high level officials" agree with your personal stance is the oldest posting ploy in the world. Your philosophy/opinion should stand on it's merits, and imo this particular philosophy/opinion of your's is meritless- "very high level officials" notwithstanding. We disagree philosophically. It's that simple. Btw, I know a lot of "very high level officials" too. I slept in a Holiday Inn Express last night also. It's true, it's true.....

2) Personally, I really don't worry about selling anything. I worry about getting the call/no call right. If I know that I've made the right call, I could care less what any coach thinks of it. Any call that goes against their team is wrong from the git-go anyway. Jmo, but it might behoove you to stop worrying so much about what the coaches think when you make a call or ignore incidental contact. If you're looking for approval, you're in the wrong racket.

Again, jmo. Don't take it personally.

[REFVA]

I may not agree with this next comment all the time, but my assoication wants us to make the call. If there is any contact and a player hits the floor from contact and it's not an accademy award move, meaning it was legitimate. Make the call. It's easier to sell than no call.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by REFVA

I may not agree with this next comment all the time, but my assoication wants us to make the call. If there is any contact and a player hits the floor from contact and it's not an accademy award move, meaning it was legitimate. Make the call. It's easier to sell than no call.

Did your association tell you to call it on the defender 99% of the time too?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by MPLAHE

Here is what I observed. the offensive player was dribbling up the right side of the court just entering the frontcourt. I was the trail coming up just behind the play. The defender was running alongside on the left and really not making a play on the ball when the their feet brushed together and the offensive player stumbled and lost the ball. I explained to the quite upset coach of the offense that it was incidental contact. He told me if the offensive player is tripped, it has to be a foul. I disagreed - he said I was clueless - his opponents got to shoot two foul shots.

As described, I have a foul on the defense in this play.

Regarding the percentages posted earlier -- I think that when this play happens in the "open court" it usually is a foul on the defense. When the offensive player drives to the hoop (especially when s/he's "out of control"), the likelihood of it being a foul goes down.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by REFVA

I may not agree with this next comment all the time, but my assoication wants us to make the call. If there is any contact and a player hits the floor from contact and it's not an accademy award move, meaning it was legitimate. Make the call. It's easier to sell than no call.

As stated many times on many different subjects, it may be a regional thing. I live in Virginia, the prominent ref's I run across work in the ACC. I have heard from more than one ACC ref that the play described by MPLAHE is expected to be called as a foul on the defender.

I'll never work in the ACC, however, all the camps I attend in hopes of one day breaking into D2 or D3 are heavily populated with ACC officials holding notepads, so when I'm in those camps, I'm going to make that call.

[Jimgolf]

Sometimes players just trip with no contact. The coaches still want a foul called, lol.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by MPLAHE

Have you ever NOT called a foul on the defense when a defender trips the opposing player dribbling the ball. I had a call recently where the offensive player (girls) was running down court and the defender was not really putting any pressure on her and their legs got tangled and the offensive player stumbled and lost possession. I passed on the potential foul, because I felt it was simply incidental contact. I was just wondering if any of you ever made an interpretation like this or do you automatically call that a foul on the defense.

I don't think it's automatic in either direction. A lot is going to depend on who is moving in which direction, and who can see whom. Thinking over various possibilities, I expect I'd call it more often than not at the high school level, but I can't say for sure from your description what I'd do in your case.