Incidental contact

[REFVA]

Did your association tell you to call it on the defender 99% of the time too? Jurassic Referee

Of course not, it's who initiated the contact. many times at the High school level the offensive player is not always innocent. I'm not sure if that was a trick question or just being funny

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by REFVA

Of course not, it's who initiated the contact. many times at the High school level the offensive player is not always innocent. I'm not sure if that was a trick question or just being funny

Neither.

Just wondering if you had been instructed to always call that a foul on the defense too, no matter what the circumstances are or who initiated the contact.

[REFVA]

Just wondering if you had been instructed to always call that a foul on the defense too, no matter what the circumstances are or who initiated the contact.

They would prefer a call as long as it's legitimate.. as stated, only if there is contact then call it on who ever initiated it.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by MPLAHE

Here is what I observed. the offensive player was dribbling up the right side of the court just entering the frontcourt. I was the trail coming up just behind the play. The defender was running alongside on the left and really not making a play on the ball when the their feet brushed together and the offensive player stumbled and lost the ball. I explained to the quite upset coach of the offense that it was incidental contact. He told me if the offensive player is tripped, it has to be a foul. I disagreed - he said I was clueless - his opponents got to shoot two foul shots.

I do agree with a previous poster who said its much easier to explain the foul than the no-call.

The correct call is a foul on B1 for this play. B1 didn't have LGP so is responsible for any contact that leads to an advantage.

BTW, I normally have a foul on a defender lying on the ground who inadvertently trips up an opponent with the ball.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

The correct call is a foul on B1 for this play. B1 didn't have LGP so is responsible for any contact that leads to an advantage.

Sometimes I'm a smart-@ss, but this is an honest question. How do we know whether B1 had LGP or not? The play doesn't tell us that. All the play says is that they were running side-by-side.

All you have to do to establish LGP is to have both feet on the floor and be facing your opponent. Once you've done that, you can move any direction (including straight up) and maintain that LGP. As long as B1 is not moving towards A1 when their feet tangle, B1 has done nothing wrong (assuming LGP was established -- two feet on the floor and facing A1 -- prior to the contact).

It may look ugly and clumsy, but if B1 established that LGP and isn't moving toward A1, you cannot (by rule) have a foul on B1.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Sometimes I'm a smart-@ss, but this is an honest question. How do we know whether B1 had LGP or not? The play doesn't tell us that. All the play says is that they were running side-by-side.

Because the OP didn't say he had LGP, he just said B1 & A1 was running side by side. Just using the facts at hand.

Even if he HAD said B1 established LGP the way I envision this play is that A1 at some point had head & shoulders past B1.

Even if he HAD said B1 maintained LGP the way I envision this play B1 moved into A1.

So the only way B1 had LGP during the contact was that B1 established it, he didn't let A1 get head & shoulders past him & B1 did not move into A1 to initiate contact.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Because the OP didn't say he had LGP, he just said B1 & A1 was running side by side. Just using the facts at hand.

Even if he HAD said B1 established LGP the way I envision this play is that A1 at some point had head & shoulders past B1.

Even if he HAD said B1 maintained LGP the way I envision this play B1 moved into A1.

So the only way B1 had LGP during the contact was that B1 established it, he didn't let A1 get head & shoulders past him & B1 did not move into A1 to initiate contact.

So what?

The dribbler getting his head and shoulders past a defender doesn't automatically(99%) mean that the foul is on the defender, does it?

The pertinent rule- NFHS 10-6-2 says "If a dribbler, without contact, sufficiently passes an opponent to have head and shoulders in advance of that opponent, the greater responsibility for subsequent contact is on the opponent.". The rule says "greater responsibility"; it doesn't say "total responsibility". That's why I think that it's not an automatic foul on the defender and you have to judge each play on it's own merits.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

So what?

The dribbler getting his head and shoulders past a defender doesn't automatically(99%) mean that the foul is on the defender, does it?

The pertinent rule- NFHS 10-6-2 says "If a dribbler, without contact, sufficiently passes an opponent to have head and shoulders in advance of that opponent, the greater responsibility for subsequent contact is on the opponent.". The rule says "greater responsibility"; it doesn't say "total responsibility". That's why I think that it's not an automatic foul on the defender and you have to judge each play on it's own merits.

Ya know, I looked and I looked and I looked again...but I cannot find a single time where I used the word automatically in this thread.

Until now.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Ya know, I looked and I looked and I looked again...but I cannot find a single time where I used the word automatically in this thread.

Until now.

So....when you said the correct call is a foul on B1, you meant....sometimes?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

So....when you said the correct call is a foul on B1, you meant....sometimes?

I meant as I envisioned the play.

Never say never.

I had a HS game where the dribbler tripped over his own feet while being dogged by an opponent. I had a clear view, I saw there was zero contact. Not even close. I gave the universal signal for nothing...arms outstretched, emphatically shaking my head back & forth. (Unapproved mechanic alert!!)

A1's coach jumped up wondering what I was looking at. I T'ed him immediately. He shut up & sat down.

Soooo....I can't say never....but pretty darned close to it.

[btaylor64]

Thanks for fighting the war for me Dan.