Incidental contact

Have you ever NOT called a foul on the defense when a defender trips the opposing player dribbling the ball. I had a call recently where the offensive player (girls) was running down court and the defender was not really putting any pressure on her and their legs got tangled and the offensive player stumbled and lost possession. I passed on the potential foul, because I felt it was simply incidental contact. I was just wondering if any of you ever made an interpretation like this or do you automatically call that a foul on the defense.

[JRutledge]

If the defender did nothing but back up and move away from the defender, then I have no problem not calling anything. Now if the leg was stuck out (not necessarily on purpose) or the defender was not in legal guarding position, then I will likely call a foul on the defender.

Peace

[refnrev]

Originally Posted by MPLAHE

Have you ever NOT called a foul on the defense when a defender trips the opposing player dribbling the ball. I had a call recently where the offensive player (girls) was running down court and the defender was not really putting any pressure on her and their legs got tangled and the offensive player stumbled and lost possession. I passed on the potential foul, because I felt it was simply incidental contact. I was just wondering if any of you ever made an interpretation like this or do you automatically call that a foul on the defense.

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You don't call a foul if there was no foul. You make decisions like this all the time in every game you work. Just because two players get tangled up or run into one another doesn't mean you have a foul. You have 10 people running hard on an 84' court. Incidental cantact is a fact of the game.

[btaylor64]

This is a foul on the defender. This is seeing the whole play though. I have no called it before, but only because i saw a player undoubtedly make a little contact with the defender and then seperated and once separated I saw the offensive player lose their feet out from underneath him/her on their own.

Regardless if you judge the contact with feet getting tangled up as incidental, this puts the offensive player at a distinct disadvantage. I don't want to say always because you have treat each play as an individual play. To say always would be wrong, but I will say personally I have this as a foul 99% of the time.

The philosophy of calling this a foul is used by mostly everybody in college and is very evident in the pro game.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Regardless if you judge the contact with feet getting tangled up as incidental, this puts the offensive player at a distinct disadvantage. I don't want to say always because you have treat each play as an individual play. To say always would be wrong, but I will say personally I have this as a foul 99% of the time.

I am not sure I agree with that statement. IF the offensive player is at a disadvantage, the question is why? If the offensive player was going into a defender that is couple be largely his/her problem. The offensive player still has a right to a place on the floor. And if 99% of the time you have a foul, then I would say that to be wrong.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

The philosophy of calling this a foul is used by mostly everybody in college and is very evident in the pro game.

Where did you get that? If anything I have been told to have a much slower whistle and not to bail out the offense when they make dumb plays. So I would take issue with you saying "most" in this case. All I have to do is watch a game on TV and I can see the most do not call this a foul on the defender (or anyone for that matter).

Peace

[btaylor64]

I mispoke, I should have said that in my region with college ball it is expressed that you call this a foul, and where I am from is where refs, for the most part are wanting to get into the pro game and therefore call this a foul like I do, cause this is what the pro game wants. (I bet if you think hard you will guess which part of the country I am talking about. It is also where about 70% of the NBA staff is from.)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

The philosophy of calling this a foul is used by mostly everybody in college and is very evident in the pro game.

Um, no, that statement is completely wrong imo; Anybody that called the play the way you are suggesting wouldn't be doing the college or pro game very long.

Incidental contact isn't necessarily a foul. Illegal contact is.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I mispoke, I should have said that in my region with college ball it is expressed that you call this a foul, and where I am from is where refs, for the most part are wanting to get into the pro game and therefore call this a foul like I do, cause this is what the pro game wants. (I bet if you think hard you will guess which part of the country I am talking about. It is also where about 70% of the NBA staff is from.)

That's complete nonsense afaic.

You're trying to justify your own position by trying to say the the colleges and the NBA agree with your hypothesis. Well, that horse don't ride. They don't agree with you. Imo, if you call that foul every time, as you're suggesting, you'll never get a sniff of a D1 college game, let alone the NBA.

[Nevadaref]

There is a big difference in the philosophy of this play at different levels. The NFHS has a case play stating that a defensive player lying on the floor should not be charged with a foul when an offensive player trips over him/her. The NCAA has an AR which makes the opposite ruling and states this is a blocking foul and that the defender does not have LGP. I have no clue what the NBA does nor do I care, but I would guess that like the rest of their game, they favor the offensive player.

The couple guys I know that work D1 have told me that they call a foul on the defender when the dribbler's feet get clipped by an opponent running nearby.

I'm just the messenger JR... don't point that cannon my way!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The couple guys I know that work D1 have told me that they call a foul on the defender when the dribbler's feet get clipped by an opponent running nearby.

Even when the dribbler moves outa his path and runs/brushes into a defender who hasn't altered their straight-line path? Somehow, I really doubt your D1 friends would call that one on the defender. Not if they were any good anyway.

You'd really call a foul on a defender who was just standing there or moving in a straight-line path if a dribbler altered directions and then ran into them?

Forget LGP; each player is still entitled to a legal spot on the court.

You missed my point also, Nevada. You don't almost always(99%) call it on the defender. You call each situation individually depending on the circumstances. Sometimes it's incidental contact with no call; other times, the foul could be on either player.

[RonRef]

Originally Posted by MPLAHE

Have you ever NOT called a foul on the defense when a defender trips the opposing player dribbling the ball. I had a call recently where the offensive player (girls) was running down court and the defender was not really putting any pressure on her and their legs got tangled and the offensive player stumbled and lost possession. I passed on the potential foul, because I felt it was simply incidental contact. I was just wondering if any of you ever made an interpretation like this or do you automatically call that a foul on the defense.

It is a lot easier to sell this as a foul than to sell it as a no-call in my opinion. It might even help you the rest of the game so the defender isn't riding the ball handler up and down the court. Most times the defender doesn't have legal guarding position and is bodying up on the dribbler.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The couple guys I know that work D1 have told me that they call a foul on the defender when the dribbler's feet get clipped by an opponent running nearby.

This is the same thing I hear from guys who work in the ACC. And when I attend camps where ACC refs are observing I always make that call. And I lean towards making that call in my JuCo games.

However, in my HS games I am more apt to pass on the play if I feel the defender did nothing wrong.

[RonRef]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

This is the same thing I hear from guys who work in the ACC. And when I attend camps where ACC refs are observing I always make that call. And I lean towards making that call in my JuCo games.

However, in my HS games I am more apt to pass on the play if I feel the defender did nothing wrong.

In the women's college game they want this called on the defense.

[REFVA]

By the explanation of the poster, I would not have called it. Yet I can only imagine the defender was probably riding the offensive player and mostly likely the contact might have not been incidental. Yet keep in mind incidental contact if the offense was not put at a disadvantage. which in this case it sound like the offense lost the ball. I would have liked to see the play, Positioning as always means a lot. seeing from different angles will defenitely give you a better call.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Even when the dribbler moves outa his path and runs/brushes into a defender who hasn't altered their straight-line path? Somehow, I really doubt your D1 friends would call that one on the defender. Not if they were any good anyway.

You'd really call a foul on a defender who was just standing there or moving in a straight-line path if a dribbler altered directions and then ran into them?

I can't speak for them, but every indication that I've had from them makes me believe that, yes, the assignors and conference coordinators want the call made that way. What I would call isn't really an issue since I am not on the floor for any D1 games, but I guess if I got there, I would do as they wanted.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Forget LGP; each player is still entitled to a legal spot on the court.

That is certainly true in the NFHS game, but as I wrote above it is NOT the case in the NCAA.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You missed my point also, Nevada. You don't almost always(99%) call it on the defender. You call each situation individually depending on the circumstances. Sometimes it's incidental contact with no call; other times, the foul could be on either player.

Again, I can't say for sure because I don't work that level of ball, but from what I hear 99% of the time that is the way those guys and gals call it up there. It doesn't really matter whether we agree with it or not. Certainly no one is consulting me!