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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 22, 2006, 09:47am
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Trouble recruiting refs for a men's league

There is a new men's league (over 30) being fomed in my home town and I have been asked to provide the referees. However, because of their past experiences with men's leagues I am finding that most referees are reluctant to referee these games.

This is a new league so we have a chance to outline rules of conduct, etc. .

Any one have any suggestions and comments.

Thanks
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Old Tue Aug 22, 2006, 09:54am
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The bottom line is, you get what you pay for. Usually, leagues like this play no more then 25-30 bucks a game, and there's a lot more crap to deal with and most of the seasoned guys just don't think it's worth it. Ultimately, new rules of conduct or not, you have to have officials with the balls to enforce whatever code you have in place. If you tell your players that first word outta their mouth they're gonna get whacked, and then you have officials that are willing to take a little more, or don't have the balls to whack em at all, then you'll never win this battle.

Bottom line, if you want the big dogs to ref your games, then you need to pay accordingly. Otherwise, take what you get, and best of luck with it.
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Old Tue Aug 22, 2006, 12:37pm
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Unless someone needs or wants the money, there is not much incentive to work those games. It is not like guys are going to get a shot at the next level because of working these games. For most officials that have worked those games, the money is usually not worth all the BS they have to put up with. I worked my last Men's league about 10 years ago. The experience sucked and I moved on.

Peace
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Old Tue Aug 22, 2006, 03:09pm
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Men's leagues are for a bunch of over the hill guys trying to relive their high school days who watch too much NBA and whine all the time. I want no part of it. That's what I tell people when they ask me if I would officiate their league.
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Old Tue Aug 22, 2006, 04:11pm
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I agree with everything that is said about the adult leagues as far as how most of the players think and act. Early on I was really intimidated by some of the former big time players and tried to avoid those games as much as possible. However, because of the extra cash, excercise, or sheer boredom, I have continued doing them in the off-season.

Now,I have found they have helped to make me a better referee!!!

I have learned to become more assertive, I have developed a more patient whistle, I have learned how to explain calls with rule quotes to players when they deserved an explanation, and I have learned to give a T in a far calmer manner.

I have always been told the only difference between a good referee and a great referee were game management skills. Adult league games are a great place to learn and practice game management.

So back to the orginal post - Try to sell the league as a game management skills improvement opportunity.
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Old Tue Aug 22, 2006, 04:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ranjo
I have always been told the only difference between a good referee and a great referee were game management skills. Adult league games are a great place to learn and practice game management.

So back to the orginal post - Try to sell the league as a game management skills improvement opportunity.
I will tell you why I think that is not true. The consequences are not the same. Men's leagues will not suspend a player for similar actions at the NCAA or NF levels (even lower levels). It is not an equal comparison. When you deal with NCAA and NF games, you will be supported by those leagues when you do things professionally. You can talk to these players all day in a professional manner and they can threaten you personally after the game. I guess that could happen in a HS or college game, but that would go along with a report and the league taken harsh action. I have known guys working these leagues to threaten officials and pay a small fine and was later allowed to play without real consequence. What an official will do is have to avoid picking up bad habits. The problem with Men's leagues is the play, behavior, consequences do not translate.

Peace
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Old Tue Aug 22, 2006, 04:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave30
Men's leagues are for a bunch of over the hill guys trying to relive their high school days who watch too much NBA and whine all the time. I want no part of it. That's what I tell people when they ask me if I would officiate their league.
AND, most of those guys think there will be an article in the paper the next day telling everybody how great they are at basketball.
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Old Tue Aug 22, 2006, 07:47pm
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Old Tue Aug 22, 2006, 08:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
Unless someone needs or wants the money, there is not much incentive to work those games. It is not like guys are going to get a shot at the next level because of working these games. For most officials that have worked those games, the money is usually not worth all the BS they have to put up with. I worked my last Men's league about 10 years ago. The experience sucked and I moved on.

Peace
JR I disagree. Granted working these leagues won't get you hired but you can become a better official. I began working men's leagues when I was about 16. While this wasn't the best decision I've ever made (I'll let you know as soon as I make a good one) it did have some positive aspects.

You can learn. A LOT. Last time I heard Ed Rush talk he advocated working Men's Leagues (he calls them postal leagues on account of the players attitudes) because of all the crap that goes on. He didn't say to work them a lot or for everyone to work them. Just that it can help some people develop as officials. You see stuff that you may never otherwise see and it forces you to think about the rules. And if your meek or mild mannered, it's sink or swim out there. Those leagues suck enough when you're swimming, I would hate to be sinking. It forces you to deal with irate players who have no control. It does get old after a while but under the right conditions a few games here and there can help.

That said I would only work a men's league that had the same rule we have here for high schools. You get thrown out once, you sit the next game. Twice, you sit three games and the third time your done. We recently instituted a rule in pop warner football where if a coach gets ejected here they have to sit a whole calander year. We went from having around 5 ejections a week to having virtually none.
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Old Tue Aug 22, 2006, 09:18pm
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I'll probably never work this sort of league again, but I helped run one several years ago. The only way we got guys to work was the rule I put in: first T, you are out the rest of the half and another full half; second T, rest of game and another full game; third T, later. Even then, some younger guys quit after a few weeks.

I also think fines are appropriate as well. They have to pay the fine to play, something like $25 for the first T, and $100 for the second.
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Old Tue Aug 22, 2006, 09:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie
I'll probably never work this sort of league again, but I helped run one several years ago. The only way we got guys to work was the rule I put in: first T, you are out the rest of the half and another full half; second T, rest of game and another full game; third T, later. Even then, some younger guys quit after a few weeks.

I also think fines are appropriate as well. They have to pay the fine to play, something like $25 for the first T, and $100 for the second.
Or they have to take the class and pass the test before they can come back.
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Old Tue Aug 22, 2006, 11:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
It is not an equal comparison. When you deal with NCAA and NF games, you will be supported by those leagues when you do things professionally. You can talk to these players all day in a professional manner and they can threaten you personally after the game. I guess that could happen in a HS or college game, but that would go along with a report and the league taken harsh action. I have known guys working these leagues to threaten officials and pay a small fine and was later allowed to play without real consequence. What an official will do is have to avoid picking up bad habits. The problem with Men's leagues is the play, behavior, consequences do not translate.

Peace
Not always true. I've worked rec leagues with strong game/on-site admin who enforced league by-laws. I worked one league where ejected players had 2 minutes to vacate the premises or team forfeited and and the Sheriff's office would receive a call (they had a team in the league and their department was 2 blocks away). I've never had anyone threaten me after a game. On the contrary, I've had players or their teammates apologize for poor behavior on quite a few ocassions.

I've learned a lot of my game management skills from rec league. I've also made mistakes in rec leagues that I couldn't afford to make in HS and JuCo. I learn from those mistakes.

My most prominent mentor (Sweet 16; multiple conference and NIT championship games) cut his teeth on rec leagues and is a big proponent of working as many games as you can as your work your way up the ladder.

My biggest beef with Rec Leagues isn't the players, it's the horrible play I sometimes have to witness
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Last edited by Raymond; Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 11:22pm.
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Old Wed Aug 23, 2006, 12:21am
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If you like those leagues work those leagues. I know a lot of officials that never worked those leagues and are doing just fine on the game management front. I think there are a lot of ways to learn game management skills and you certainly do not need these leagues to get that experience.

Peace
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Old Wed Aug 23, 2006, 07:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
If you like those leagues work those leagues. I know a lot of officials that never worked those leagues and are doing just fine on the game management front. I think there are a lot of ways to learn game management skills and you certainly do not need these leagues to get that experience.

Peace
Well I know a few who did work rec leagues on their way up. So I'm not going to discourage others from exploring those avenues.

As far as game management skills, I can only speak for myself and what has worked for me.

Of course, it could just be a regional thing.
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Last edited by Raymond; Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 04:05pm.
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Old Wed Aug 23, 2006, 03:06pm
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Working rec games has helped me quite a bit. However, there are some dangers. The first is developing, or devolving to, "rec league mechanics." You have to rage against that. Second is developing a cynical attitude about all ball players and coaches. That can hurt you if you take it into a HS game. Third is staying too long. There comes a time in every official's career where rec league isn't going to help him/her any more. At that point, it's time to leave it for the new guys.

Oh, I forgot one. It's important to remember to switch hands for every T. Otherwise you stand a real chance of developing a RSI.
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