player control/team control

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

I realize that team control can exist during a PC foul and that the penalty is the same. But it is not a TC foul by definition. Get them to change the working of the articles/rule and I there. Until then, no.

Well no, that's what you don't understand, apparently.

They are *exactly* the same by the wording of the definition, minus the exception. And the exception (airborne shooter) is consistent with the given definition without explanation. If the PC is by an airborne shooter then by definition under the fed it is not a TC - no team ctl. If the PC is by the player in control of the ball then by definition we have a TC - team ctl. By definition that's all that matters, did the fouling team have ctl of the ball. If the fed decided to remove the airborne shooter exception (make it the same as those rules you don't care about) then the definition of TC would remain exactly as is. It's all in there, it's all consistent, you just don't want to see it.

No biggie.

[Jimgolf]

In English, a player is part of a team.

In basketball, team control foul and player control foul are seperate concepts. While most player control fouls occur while the team has control, they are not team control fouls.

An analogy is the team rebound statistic. While all rebounds are by members of a team, not all rebounds are team rebounds.

I suspect the term was defined to distinguish between types of fouls, not as an umbrella definition. JMO.

[Jurassic Referee]

If you took away the NFHS airborne shooter exception, there would be no need to have the term "player control foul" in the rule book. The term "team control foul" would cover all situations nicely.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If you took away the NFHS airborne shooter exception, there would be no need to have the term "player control foul" in the rule book. The term "team control foul" would cover all situations nicely.

Actually if you changed the wording of 4-19-7 to add the words "or by an airborne shooter" you could eliminate 4-19-6 completely, along with any references.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Actually if you changed the wording of 4-19-7 to add the words "or by an airborne shooter" you could eliminate 4-19-6 completely, along with any references.

You'll never make the FED rules committee. Your thinking is too logical.

[Raymond]

This thread got so long and convoluted I forgot what the argument was.

Can the OP please start a poll.

Is PC by definition a Team Control foul:

-- Yes

-- No

-- IDGAF, I just like to see Dan bicker with Tony and Juulie

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

-- IDGAF, I just like to see Dan bicker with Tony and Juulie

Actually this damn thread is taking time from what I like to do - come here & pester Chuck.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Well no, that's what you don't understand, apparently.

They are *exactly* the same by the wording of the definition, minus the exception. And the exception (airborne shooter) is consistent with the given definition without explanation. If the PC is by an airborne shooter then by definition under the fed it is not a TC - no team ctl. If the PC is by the player in control of the ball then by definition we have a TC - team ctl. By definition that's all that matters, did the fouling team have ctl of the ball. If the fed decided to remove the airborne shooter exception (make it the same as those rules you don't care about) then the definition of TC would remain exactly as is. It's all in there, it's all consistent, you just don't want to see it.

No biggie.

So we're all blind except you? Gees, that sounds like something...well never mind. Faced with the rule, unable to provide an interp or case play. Is your last name Rutledge?

No my hardheaded friend, you're the one who refuses to see it. You want to ignore the exception. You want to offer things like "if the fed....." Well, you can't ignore the exception and the Fed hasn't changed anything. It is what it is. If and when they do, people like myself, Jim, Juulie, and others will agree with you. Until then, you're wrong and you'll continue to be wrong.

I'm done.

[JRutledge]

Another display of the Tony thinks his point of view is the only one that matters. Then acts like a little ***** and walks away from the comments when you do not agree with him after he throws out a couple of personal shots. Another great display classless behavior from a guy that needs the internet to show his ability as an official rather than prove it on the court or field.

BTW, this is not the NF board, you cannot do anything to me here.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

a guy that needs the internet to show his ability as an official rather than prove it on the court or field.

Not for nuthin', but how many state finals have you worked, Rut?

Me -- 0
Rut -- 0
Tony -- 2

I'm just saying, seems like he has proved it on the court.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Not for nuthin', but how many state finals have you worked, Rut?

Me -- 0
Rut -- 0
Tony -- 2

I'm just saying, seems like he has proved it on the court.

I slept in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Just saying.....

Btw, Chuckles, you going to that IAABO thingy up in Toronto?

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Btw, Chuckles, you going to that IAABO thingy up in Toronto?

Yeah. I leave Sept. 6. I love Toronto.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Yeah. I leave Sept. 6. I love Toronto.

Share if anything new, exciting or useful comes up.

Wonder if MTD Sr. is going also.....

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Not for nuthin', but how many state finals have you worked, Rut?

Me -- 0
Rut -- 0
Tony -- 2

I'm just saying, seems like he has proved it on the court.

How many State Finals did he work in Illinois? (I think the answer would be zero)

How many Division 1 games has he worked? How many NCAA Tournament games has he worked?

One of the best officials I have ever met and worked with has never worked a HS playoff game EVER. He worked his first NCAA Tournament this past year.

I guess if working a State Final is your only goal in life, you got me there. If I never work a State Final in basketball, it will not be the end of the world if I accomplish many of my other goals.

Peace