Guidance?

[Nevadaref]

I know your post was intended for JR, but I want to play too.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Let's turn this sitch around a bit. What if the throw-in had been successful and you've got a substitution partially completed. Some of the subs have come on the floor, some have not. Some of the players have left, some have not. The ball has been thrown in, and....what, we just let it go and hope the rest of the subs hurry and finish going on and off? Or maybe we T them up if they do finish the substitution after the ball is live?

Yep, that is unfortunately what I think that the officials must do. It is really bad and isn't the common sense method, but it is what the rules say to do when more than 5 are on the court during a live ball. Hopefully, each team is subbing and these can be offsetting simultaneous Ts.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

You realize, of course, that the clock can't be running so long as the T continues to signal continued time-out. So...we play on without the clock? No. Of course you'd stop the play. You have no real choice. It's obvious. But why is it different if the throw-in is success and/or you have subs? Your basic premise of if-the-T-didn't-whistle-then-the-play-must-stand is inconsistent.

That might be true, it might not. The clock ran in 2.10.1 Sit B that I cited. It wasn't supposed to be running by rule in that play.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

8) I have clearly cited all the necessary rules, and logically laid out the basis for this statement. It is plain. The fact that an official can continue to signal continued time-out is clearly codified. And we all do it regularly when we keep our hand raised. The fact that the clock cannot be started, even "as per rule," clearly indicates that this continued time-out signal trumps whatever play that official's partner(s) erroneously allows to happen. What other possible, logical conclusion can be drawn?.

Of course he can, but so what? What does it really mean? What weight does it carry? Now you are starting to make the point that you must in order to win this debate. The action of one official MUST trump the other, but which one? Unfortunately, for your case, I believe that I made the point that the rule of your "as per rule" is not applicable here due to there being no neglecting to signal. There is only a failure to recognize a partner's signal. So does the game continue until the partner's signal is recognized or he makes it recognized with a whistle? Right now, I believe that the principles in the case plays that I cited put the trump with the official who administered the throw-in and counted the 5-second violation. You are challenged to counter those.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

... the T's hand in the air, without subs, is meaningless, despite clearly contradicting 5-9-1. Please provide a citation.

It is not meaningless; it just doesn't mean as much as the game action which occurred. Why? See the case book plays cited.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

You then agreed with Tony that subs coming and going would make a difference. How can this be? Either the ball is allowed to be live while the T is signaling, or it isn't. What possible difference could subs make? Please provide a citation.

As far as the ball being live or dead, it doesn't make any difference whether or not there are subs out there. It just makes cleaning up the mess a whole lot worse.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

You have said that if the T had blown his whistle before the 5 seconds was up, that would have made a difference. Why? If, as you assert, the ball is properly live. What is your basis for killing this live ball? Surely that basis is sufficient to continue the time-out. Please provide a citation.

For one thing there would not have been a violation. That means that the same team retains the throw-in when the game is resumed due to the POI rule. Play was interrupted during a throw-in.
By the strict application of the rules, there should be a T to each team that has subs out there during this action. You can probably get away with not giving them, but if we are talking about following the rules, then that wouldn't be precisely right.
As for the basis for the T blowing his whistle, see the next answer.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

You have said that since the T didn't blow his whistle, and the violation occurred, this is a regrettable, but non-correctable error. Please provide a citation.

There are many examples of officials errors resulting in regrettable situations and teams getting hosed, but they are not correctable. Givng the ball to the wrong team for a throw-in and having the throw-in touched inbounds is one example. If the official blows the whistle right after that, by the book, you can't give it back to the other team. What is the basis for blowing the whistle at that time? There isn't one, it really is too late per the rules. That whistle becomes an accidental whistle. = resume at the POI

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Finally, you seem clearly to base your reasoning around the ball absolutely becoming live because the L put it at the disposal of the thrower, this despite 6-1-2-Note and my generalization, which you agreed with, that there are times when some other rule takes precidence over 6-1-2. Please explain how the ball becoming live trumps 5-9-1 and the conclusions I have drawn from it. Please provide a citation.

See my long two-part post.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by FrankHtown

I wish i had my case book, but I believe there is a case where the free throw shooter fumbles the ball, and is about to violate. I think the case says blow the ball dead, like it never became live, and reset the free thorw. (NF)

FREE-THROWER LOSES BALL
9.1.1 SITUATION: A1, at the free throw line to attempt a free throw (a) muffs the pass from the official and it rolls forward; or (b) accidentally drops the ball before the throwing motion is started. RULING: In (a) and (b) the official should sound the whistle to prevent any violations and then start the free throw procedure again.


I don't think that giving the ball back to the FT shooter means that the ball NEVER became live. It certainly did. If a foul or violation had occurred prior to him losing the ball that action would stand. I could envision readministering the FT with a delayed lane violation.

Also notice that the referee is instructed to whistle "to prevent any violations." How could they violate if the ball was never live? It was live.

[Jurassic Referee]

[Jurassic Referee]

Also......

What Nevada said.

I think.

Maybe.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Where's M&M? I demand that the Redundancy Department show up and cite you!

Ok, consider her cited.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Where's M&M? I demand also that the Redundancy Department shows up and cites her.

Ok, consider her cited.

Sheesh, how do I get dragged into this?

Now, for those of you just lurking and not actually participating in this discussion, you now see the problems that can occur just because two officials did not communicate with each other. A very simple thing, eye contact before putting the ball in play, can prevent numerous problems (the technical term is "clusterf***).

I've tried to figure out what I would do if this play were to happen to me. As T, I would've blown my whistle a couple of times when I saw my partner handing the ball to the player, so the play would be dead. Now, if I was L, and I didn't see my partner's hand up, and they didn't do anything to alert me, I think I might have to allow the play to stand. I believe one of the main questions being asked is which official has "precedence". My feeling would be that the official that has "on ball" responsibility would have the slight advantage, so they would be the one to take the heat for putting the ball in play without checking with their partner(s).

So boys and girls, I hope we've all learned a valuable lesson these last few days, at the expense of poor 'ol johnnyrao.

[mick]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Ok, consider her cited.



Ok, consider her cited.

Sheesh, how do I get dragged into this?

Now, for those of you just lurking and not actually participating in this discussion, you now see the problems that can occur just because two officials did not communicate with each other. A very simple thing, eye contact before putting the ball in play, can prevent numerous problems (the technical term is "clusterf***).

I've tried to figure out what I would do if this play were to happen to me. As T, I would've blown my whistle a couple of times when I saw my partner handing the ball to the player, so the play would be dead. Now, if I was L, and I didn't see my partner's hand up, and they didn't do anything to alert me, I think I might have to allow the play to stand. I believe one of the main questions being asked is which official has "precedence". My feeling would be that the official that has "on ball" responsibility would have the slight advantage, so they would be the one to take the heat for putting the ball in play without checking with their partner(s).

So boys and girls, I hope we've all learned a valuable lesson these last few days, at the expense of poor 'ol johnnyrao.

JR,
As Trail, my "Stop Sign" counts. My hand will be clearly at my partner's face and the game will not continue until both of us (or all of us) are ready.

As Lead, I will be prepared for a do-over for the same reasoning, the entire officiating crew was not ready and we aren't playing until it is.

mick

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by mick

JR,
As Trail, my "Stop Sign" counts. My hand will be clearly at my partner's face and the game will not continue until both of us (or all of us) are ready.

As Lead, I will be prepared for a do-over for the same reasoning, the entire officiating crew was not ready and we aren't playing until it is.

mick

And, if you were to come up to me and tell me that after I had put the ball in play, I probably wouldn't argue it. (And, of course, I would have to buy the after-game beverage for putting the ball in play in that instance.) More than likely, if the T is just standing there with their hand up, and not aware that I'm putting the ball in play, they probably aren't a strong official, so I'm going to have to be the one to make the ruling.

I guess my point was all this could be avoided by simply having eye contact with your partner(s) before the ball is put in play. It's a standard line in most pre-games, but it just bears repeating because so many problems can be avoided by this simple tactic.

[Back In The Saddle]

NevadaRef. That's a lot to consider, and consider I shall. It's a crazy busy day today, but I'll get back to you on this.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Somebody videod you and your crew in a three-whistle pre-game, warming up?

[Back In The Saddle]

Here's how my first 2-whistle pregame went. My partner said he figured I just needed to be thrown into the deep end.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Here's how my first 2-whistle pregame went. My partner said he figured I just needed to be thrown into the deep end.

Anybody see "March of the Penguins"? Pretty good movie. Morgan Freeman always sounds cool. But there's one shot where all the females are walking back from the sea to their mates. At one point, one of them slips and falls right on its back. The one right behind her just goes, "BWAAH!" Totally sounds like she's making fun of her. I was just reminded of it when I saw the gif above.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Anybody see "March of the Penguins"?

Great movie. One of my wife's favorites too.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

NevadaRef. That's a lot to consider, and consider I shall. It's a crazy busy day today, but I'll get back to you on this.

Give up, BITS?

Don't blame you....

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Give up, BITS?

Don't blame you....

Nah, just been too busy the last couple of days to dig into this. Yet

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Nah, just been too busy the last couple of days to dig into this. Yet

Don't bother, life's too short.

Take your favorite gal out to dinner & a movie & get fresh with her instead.