Guidance?

[johnnyrao]

I worked a summer HS basketball tournament this weekend. Team A had an inbounds play under their basket. I was lead. I started my count and called a 5 second violation. The Trail came to me and told me that I made a mistake because he had his hand up indicating subs were coming into the game so I should not have administered the throw-in. I agree I made a huge mistake here. But, he then told me we should give the ball back to Team A since I made a mistake. I told him I didn't think we could because it's not a correctable error. It's an error on my part but I still gave A1 a full five seconds to get the throw in on the court. He told me to do whatever I wanted to do but he just wanted to point it out to me. I gave the ball to B because of the violation and we went on. Is this correct or could we have gone back and done it again?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by johnnyrao

I worked a summer HS basketball tournament this weekend. Team A had an inbounds play under their basket. I was lead. I started my count and called a 5 second violation. The Trail came to me and told me that I made a mistake because he had his hand up indicating subs were coming into the game so I should not have administered the throw-in. I agree I made a huge mistake here. But, he then told me we should give the ball back to Team A since I made a mistake. I told him I didn't think we could because it's not a correctable error. It's an error on my part but I still gave A1 a full five seconds to get the throw in on the court. He told me to do whatever I wanted to do but he just wanted to point it out to me. I gave the ball to B because of the violation and we went on. Is this correct or could we have gone back and done it again?

Blech

He screwed up because he let you start the game through his stop sign without a whislte.

You screwed up because you didn't see his stop sign.

Your partner should have just turned around & headed downcourt when you blew the whistle on the 5 second count. But he didn't, he screwed up twice. You only screwed up once.

You got it right, the play stands.

[BktBallRef]

Give the ball back to A. Next time, look at your partner before administering the throw-in.

[Camron Rust]

As you can see, two very knowledgeable officials already have given you different rulings. I don't think there is anything written that will settle this issue and the R will just have to make a judgement.

I'm not saying which one is right becasue I just don't know but I'll make a few pionts that come to mind...

• If A had players being subbed out and none where near the throwin at the time and B had all 5 players guarding the remaining players from A, A would have a very good case for getting the ball back.
• If it was B who had players being subbed, B really earned the ball.
• The primary mistake was by the official administering the throwin...the other, presumably, had the prescribed signal up to stop the action...while the whistle is nice and recommended (and I do it when it might be unclear), I don't believe it is actually required.
• The ball did become live as the throwin was administered.
• The ball was dead because of the hand up.

All this adds up to a big hmmm.

[Nevadaref]

Did the substitution process actually occur? Did you have more the 5 team members from one team on the floor during the live ball once you administered the throw-in?

What mess!!!

Lesson learned is to ALWAYS look at your partner before putting the ball in play. Also, you must pregame that a hand up means "DON'T GO."

It doesn't matter who you give the ball to in this situation, one team is rightly going to be upset.

[Jurassic Referee]

I agree with Dan. This isn't one of the 5 correctable errors listed. It's an officials mistake. There's no provision anywhere in the rules to go back and rectify an official's mistake. You have to follow rule 9-2PENALTY.

There were no subs beckoned either, as per the original post.

[BktBallRef]

Did he beckon or not? Were subs entering and replacements leaving or not? That would definitely be an issue.

The whole play is a cluster**** on the part of both offiicals.

[johnnyrao]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I agree with Dan. This isn't one of the 5 correctable errors listed. It's an officials mistake. There's no provision anywhere in the rules to go back and rectify an official's mistake. You have to follow rule 9-2PENALTY.

There were no subs beckoned either, as per the original post.

I don't know if the subs were becloned or not. I do know that there was no horn sounded so I, as lead and administering the throw-in, was not aware of the subs. Since this is a summer tourney with a running clock we did pre-game that we would try and keep the game flowing as much as possible. All this being said, I admit the biggest error was mine for not doing the "four point check" (partner, partner, table, clock) before administering. I'm glad we do summer games because I hope not to make this mistake during the regular season. Thanks for the input.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Did he beckon or not? Were subs entering and replacements leaving or not? That would definitely be an issue.

Yup, I'll go along with that. If subs were beckoned by the trail and you had players running all over the floor, then I agree that a re-set is probably the best course.

If the T just had a hand in the air though, I think that you gotta go with the violation. The trail made a mistake, but his mistake wasn't of the correctable ilk and didn't really have any bearing on the play either.

[mick]

Originally Posted by johnnyrao

I don't know if the subs were becloned or not. I do know that there was no horn sounded so I, as lead and administering the throw-in, was not aware of the subs. Since this is a summer tourney with a running clock we did pre-game that we would try and keep the game flowing as much as possible. All this being said, I admit the biggest error was mine for not doing the "four point check" (partner, partner, table, clock) before administering. I'm glad we do summer games because I hope not to make this mistake during the regular season. Thanks for the input.

Good going, Johnny Rao!
I gotta believe that sitch is gone from your game, ...forever.
And, it didn't even hurt you that badly.
mick

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, I'll go along with that. If subs were beckoned by the trail and you had players running all over the floor, then I agree that a re-set is probably the best course.

Which is what I understood the play to be. Otherwise, if you're going to stick with the 5 second call, you have to also throw some T's for too many players on the floor. Can't call one infraction and ignore another.

Johnny will have to clarify.

[Back In The Saddle]

I guess I'm venturing way out onto the thin, non-rules-backed ice here, but if I'm T (well, if I'm T I'm going to know that L gave the ball and I'm hitting the whistle, but....) I'm going to L and tell him, my hand was up, Partner. That ball never became live. Period.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

I guess I'm venturing way out onto the thin, non-rules-backed ice here, but if I'm T (well, if I'm T I'm going to know that L gave the ball and I'm hitting the whistle, but....) I'm going to L and tell him, my hand was up, Partner. That ball never became live. Period.

Yup, you are venturing into non-rules backed territory. The ball became live as soon as the lead placed it at the disposal of the thrower. The Trail's hand in the air doesn't kill the play. The only way the trail can kill it is by blowing his whistle before the L called the violation. That didn't happen, so.......

If you can whistle it before the violation is called, fine, go ahead and re-set the play. If not, then there's no rule that I know of that will allow you to re-set it after the violation is called.

Sometimes the rules won't allow us to do what we think is "fair". Gotta remember though that we gotta be "fair" to the defensive team too. They played good defense to cause the violation; they shouldn't be penalized for doing so.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The ball became live as soon as the lead placed it at the disposal of the thrower.

Didn't there used to be a rule or case that said the referee could declare that the ball never became live?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Didn't there used to be a rule or case that said the referee could declare that the ball never became live?

Not that I can remember, Chuck.

Can't change history, unless it's a correctable error or a timer/scorer mistake.