Kicked ball on inbound throw in

[Damian]

Question about time running when the inbound throw in ends with a kicked ball. This will pertain to the correctable error time limit.

A1 is fouled and should have been merited a 1+1 free throw. Instead was given the ball out of bounds. On the inbounds pass, the ball is kicked before being legally touched inbounds and a violation occurs.

NFHS rules says the inbound pass ends when the ball is touched by a player. (It doesn't say legally touched). It also says that a kicked ball violation makes the ball dead when the violation occurs.

So, if the clock operator started the clock and stopped it immediately, does this constitute "proper time" running off the clock.

To finish the scenario, after the kicked ball, the official places the ball at the disposal of the thrower, then is notified that he should have received the free throws.

By rule, is it too late or not?

[Jurassic Referee]

NFHS rule 4-9-4 says that the clock should be started on the throw-in when the ball touches or is touched by a player. It doesn't say "legally" touched, just touched.

By rule, the error for the missed 1/1 can be corrected until the end of the first dead ball after the clock started. The ball became live on the throw-in for the kicked ball violation as soon as it was handed to or placed at the disposal of the thrower- rule 6-1-2(b). Iow, yup, it's too late by rule to correct the error at that time.

Note rule 5-9-1 also says that it doesn't matter either whether the official signalled "clock start" on the kicked-ball throw-in or not. The timer is authorized to start the clock using 4-9-4 without having any signal from the official.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

NFHS rule 4-9-4 says that the clock should be started on the throw-in when the ball touches or is touched by a player.

Typo. S/b 5-9-4.

[ChuckElias]

While JR's rule citation says that the clock should start on the touch, the clock can't start if the touch causes the ball to be dead immediately, IMO. If the player receiving the pass were standing OOB when he touched the ball, we would not start the clock, would we? This is the same situation. The touch causes the ball to be dead immediately, just as if he were OOB.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

While JR's rule citation says that the clock should start on the touch, the clock can't start if the touch causes the ball to be dead immediately, IMO. If the player receiving the pass were standing OOB when he touched the ball, we would not start the clock, would we? This is the same situation. The touch causes the ball to be dead immediately, just as if he were OOB.

I have to disagree with you, Chuck. It's not the same situation. The rule says the clock starts when the ball is touched by a player ON THE COURT, which is defined as being inbounds. I agree that the clock should not start until the ball is legally touched on the floor but that's not what the rule says.

In your example where the clock doesn't start when the pass is touched by a player OOB, the clock doesn't start because THE PLAYER IS NOT ON THE COURT. That's the difference in the two plays.

5-9-4
If play is resumed by a throw-in, the clock shall be started when the ball touches, or is touched by, a player on the court after it is released by the thrower.

Once the ball is handed to the thrower after the kick, the ball is live and it's too late to correct.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

In your example where the clock doesn't start when the pass is touched by a player OOB, the clock doesn't start because THE PLAYER IS NOT ON THE COURT. That's the difference in the two plays.

5-9-4
If play is resumed by a throw-in, the clock shall be started when the ball touches, or is touched by, a player on the court after it is released by the thrower.

Under throw-in provisions, it says, "The ball shall be passed by the thrower directly into the court from out-of-bound so it touches or is touched by another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched." (9-2-2)

That player OOB apparently is on the court.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

While JR's rule citation says that the clock should start on the touch, the clock can't start if the touch causes the ball to be dead immediately, IMO.

I disagree.

The the clock should start on the touch, not on the legal touch.

Whether or not time actually comes off the clock in this sitch is irrelevant IMO. It's certainly possible that the operator started & stopped the clock quickly enough to prevent a second from coming off.

BTW, I can't help but comment on the death of the evil mass murderer pig zarqawi. This world is a less repugnant place now that the pig is dead. To me it was disappointing that he probably had no idea what was about to happen to him until he found himself covered in rubble & his own blood. Recent reports that he lived long enough to die as he tried to roll himself off the stretcher being carried by uniformed US soldiers certainly makes me feel better.

[ChuckElias]

I would say both situations are correctable. You have to correct it before the first dead ball becomes live after the clock properly starts. So if the ball is merely at the disposal of the inbounder, the clock has not started; therefore, it's still correctable.

If the ball is inbounded and kicked, the ball is dead immediately due to the kick. My interpretation would be that the clock should not have started. (So even if the clock operator started and stopped the clock, it wasn't properly started.)

So go ahead and correct the error in both situations.