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Old Sat Jul 21, 2001, 01:24am
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Cool

The other day I got a call to fill in for someone in 3 mens league games. Usually, I don't do "jerkball" but I hadn't reffed in almost two weeks and I needed the exercise so I took the games.

They went OK, actually. However, my partner threw a guy out in the second game. I heard what the guy said to deserve the ejection and there is no doubt he deserved it. I found out later what started it.

Coming out of a timeout, A1 was to inbound sideline just above the free throw line in frontcourt. My partner was administering and bounced the ball to A1. Apparently, A1 asked my partner if he could inbound into the backcourt. My partner replied, "Try it and you'll find out."

A1 looked at him in disbelief and asked again, this time not so politely. My partner repeated his answer. A1 then started telling my partner to stop "being an ***." My partner then blew the whistle - and called a five second inbound violation (I thought that was the really cool part).

This really set A1 off and he then proceeded to unleash his entire vocabulary of "words you wouldn't say in front of your mother", as I once heard a veteran describe them.

As I stated above, my partner called a T, ruled it flagrant and ejected A1.

Just another day on the job.
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Old Sat Jul 21, 2001, 08:17am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Coming out of a timeout, A1 was to inbound sideline just above the free throw line in frontcourt. My partner was administering and bounced the ball to A1. Apparently, A1 asked my partner if he could inbound into the backcourt. My partner replied, "Try it and you'll find out."

A1 looked at him in disbelief and asked again, this time not so politely. My partner repeated his answer. A1 then started telling my partner to stop "being an ***." My partner then blew the whistle - and called a five second inbound violation (I thought that was the really cool part).

Mark,
You have to be writing tongue-in-cheek.
mick
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Old Sat Jul 21, 2001, 09:02am
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I'd probably answer that question if an 8th grader asked me but not an audlt.
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Old Sat Jul 21, 2001, 01:08pm
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Why not answer the question? If he asked politely. I would have said, yes. These aduls are playing under really old memory rules and have not seen a rule book in years if ever. Most information players receive is from officials and maybe their coaches. I would have answered the question. And played on.
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Old Sat Jul 21, 2001, 01:28pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Baldwin
Why not answer the question? If he asked politely. I would have said, yes. These aduls are playing under really old memory rules and have not seen a rule book in years if ever. Most information players receive is from officials and maybe their coaches. I would have answered the question. And played on.
IMHO:
I agree with you in principle. However, if you have done much "jerk-ball" you will know that the less communicaton you have with the "players" the better off you are going to be. The sarcastic answer had no place either. I'm sure a quick one word answer ie: YES would have been appropriate. On the other hand, I haven't had a men's league yet where Ts and ejections were not the norm and I'm not about to "get into it" or have a rules clinic with some used-ta-be or could-a-been.
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Old Sat Jul 21, 2001, 02:24pm
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Talking

Lets be a-dult!!! The world needs more DULTS!!!
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Old Sat Jul 21, 2001, 03:49pm
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally posted by co2ice
Lets be a-dult!!! The world needs more DULTS!!!
Ubetcha, co...co...cold. (is that co2ice?)
And less Adolts.
mick
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Old Sat Jul 21, 2001, 04:28pm
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Those of you who regularly do mens leagues realize that, yes, T's and ejections are the norm most of the time and your patience wears thin. In this case, however, I'm not sure my partner necessarily meant his reply to be sarcastic. There have been times in HS games where I have been asked the same or similar questions. I have been told that the coach has primary responsibility for teaching their players the rules, not the official. I admit, I have given replies such as, "I really am not supposed to tell you" and "Ask your coach."

Frankly, I can't remember being asked ahead of time in a mens game if a certain action would be "legal". I'm not sure what I would answer. The probablility is that I would give a direct answer unless the answer was dependent on multiple factors. Then it would take too long.

Maybe I should just give my normal, standard answer I use all the time in all phases of my life - "Perhaps".
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Old Tue Jul 24, 2001, 06:15pm
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I would answer the question -- but how? Probably with something like "The general answer is 'Yes'" or maybe "Yes, but with some weird exceptions." The follow up question would receive "It too complicated for now; talk to me afterwards. Lets go."

That being said, I've done almost zero adult league work. (Three outings I think.) Basically jerk-ball is no fun, I don't really need the money, and my evenings are worth more than it offers. The biggest benefit would be the development of my skills, but I've just suffered the long way.

That said, I just agreed to be the regular ref for a men's league starting this week. I guess it runs late each summer as a fund raiser for our school athletic program. The chief hauncho told me I could set the rules myself. (That is, what exceptions to allow. Customary is hockey-style substitutions, which are fine with me as long as there is no advantage gained.) Last year they used varsity players to ref and they want to improve the quality, but not destroy the purpose (raising funds for the school). I said I would only ref games where fouls are tracked and players can foul out -- he agreed. I figured I need the exercise, plus the judgment practice I'll gain.
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Old Wed Jul 25, 2001, 12:33am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Ogg
Customary is hockey-style substitutions, which are fine with me as long as there is no advantage gained.)
Interesting!! What would be the advantage gained, how do you judge that, and (most important) what is the signal!??
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Old Wed Jul 25, 2001, 12:37am
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It's the 2nd half and team A gains control in their BC. A6 runs onto the floor in the FC as A5 leaves the floor. A1 hits A6 with a wide open pass under the basket.

In my judgment, that would be an advantage gained. The signal is the left hand extended straight up, in front of the chest with the palm of the right hand meeting the left fingertips.
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Old Wed Jul 25, 2001, 06:04am
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Smart Alec Reply

I'm sorry, fellow officials, but Mark's partner started this one with his smart*** reply of "try it and you'll find out." What would be wrong with a simple yes or no? The game of life (and basketball) is played by communicating, and Mark's partner certainly failed with his communciation skills. I'm betting that Mark's partner went into this game with a chip on his shoulder, and probably deserved all the crap he got from the players. Sure, the player in question was also wrong for his verbal tirade, but Mark's parter started it. I have found that if you treat players (even adult rec players) with respect, it goes a long way toward preventing problems. Treating them with respect (e.g. answering a simple question) is far different than knuckling under and being subservient to them.
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Old Wed Jul 25, 2001, 06:30am
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Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
It's the 2nd half and team A gains control in their BC. A6 runs onto the floor in the FC as A5 leaves the floor. A1 hits A6 with a wide open pass under the basket.

In my judgment, that would be an advantage gained. The signal is the left hand extended straight up, in front of the chest with the palm of the right hand meeting the left fingertips.
With mass movements like those, it would make sense to have a linesman sitting in an elevated chair at half court.
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Old Wed Jul 25, 2001, 09:53am
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Re: Smart Alec Reply

Quote:
Originally posted by JAdams
I'm sorry, fellow officials, but Mark's partner started this one with his smart*** reply of "try it and you'll find out." What would be wrong with a simple yes or no? The game of life (and basketball) is played by communicating, and Mark's partner certainly failed with his communciation skills. I'm betting that Mark's partner went into this game with a chip on his shoulder, and probably deserved all the crap he got from the players. Sure, the player in question was also wrong for his verbal tirade, but Mark's parter started it. I have found that if you treat players (even adult rec players) with respect, it goes a long way toward preventing problems. Treating them with respect (e.g. answering a simple question) is far different than knuckling under and being subservient to them.
Yes, all those things are true but at some point there has to be a line between officiating, coaching or giving a player an advantage. Yes, the question could be answered easily enough. But players should be expected to know certain things, even though this board is filled with items that prove that they don't.

Let's say a player receives a pass, fumbles it and bats the ball to the floor before controlling it. He turns to you and says "Can I still dribble?" I'm not going to answer him. Are you?

I don't know that there is a right or wrong way to handle this. I think each individual will handle it in the way they feel is best. But I'm not going to blast a guy in a third party story, who isn't hear to justify his actions.
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Old Wed Jul 25, 2001, 01:34pm
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Re: Re: Smart Alec Reply

Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by JAdams
I'm sorry, fellow officials, but Mark's partner started this one with his smart*** reply of "try it and you'll find out." What would be wrong with a simple yes or no? The game of life (and basketball) is played by communicating, and Mark's partner certainly failed with his communciation skills. I'm betting that Mark's partner went into this game with a chip on his shoulder, and probably deserved all the crap he got from the players. Sure, the player in question was also wrong for his verbal tirade, but Mark's parter started it. I have found that if you treat players (even adult rec players) with respect, it goes a long way toward preventing problems. Treating them with respect (e.g. answering a simple question) is far different than knuckling under and being subservient to them.
Yes, all those things are true but at some point there has to be a line between officiating, coaching or giving a player an advantage. Yes, the question could be answered easily enough. But players should be expected to know certain things, even though this board is filled with items that prove that they don't.

Let's say a player receives a pass, fumbles it and bats the ball to the floor before controlling it. He turns to you and says "Can I still dribble?" I'm not going to answer him. Are you?

I don't know that there is a right or wrong way to handle this. I think each individual will handle it in the way they feel is best. But I'm not going to blast a guy in a third party story, who isn't hear to justify his actions.
I couldn't agree more with JAdams -- officials need to be PROFESSIONAL at all times. If the events happened the way they were detailed in Mark's story, calling 5 seconds was not only not "cool," it was a complete A**HOLE thing to do. IMHO, it is officials that do that kind of crap that gives all of us a bad name.

As far as answering a player's question, "giving a player an advantage." Would you not tell a player he/she can run the baseline after returning from a timeout?

Give respect to earn respect.

Jake
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