"Try it and you'll find out"

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by 112448


As far as answering a player's question, "giving a player an advantage." Would you not tell a player he/she can run the baseline after returning from a timeout?

Yes, I would. But that's just preventive officiating. It's also apples to oranges. There are situations when he can and when he can't run the baseline. That's also the type of thing that the crew communciates to each other to avoid a possible error. I'll tell him he can run the baseline or that it's a spot throw but I'm not going to tell him "And you can throw it into to a teammate out of bounds if you want to." That's what coaches are for.

As luck would have it, I had an inbound play directly in front of the team's bench today. The coach looked at me and asked, you guessed it, "Can he throw it into the backcourt?" I just raised an eyebrow at him and he said, "My bad. Of course he can."

[mick]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Yes, I would. But that's just preventive officiating. It's also apples to oranges. There are situations when he can and when he can't run the baseline. That's also the type of thing that the crew communciates to each other to avoid a possible error. I'll tell him he can run the baseline or that it's a spot throw but I'm not going to tell him "And you can throw it into to a teammate out of bopunds if you want to." That's what coaches are for.

As luck would have it, I had an inbound play directly in front of the team's bench today. The coach looked at me and asked, you guessed it, "Can he throw it into the backcourt?" I just raised an eyebrow at him and he said, "My bad. Of course he can."

Tony,
The raised eyebrow. YES!
May I use that?
mick

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by mick

Tony,
The raised eyebrow. YES!
May I use that?
mick

Sure. My praw is I can only raise the left one!

[Mark Padgett]

Just for general information, I always tell a player (at any level) they can run the baseline (if it is true) coming out of a timeout. I also make the "sweeping" gesture with my hand. In fact, as soon as the timeout is called, I let my partner know they can run when they come back.

Usually, I say something to the player like, "It's after a made basket so you can run the endline."

Believe me, it saves a lot of grief.

If there is a spot throw-in, however, I just point to the spot and don't say anything. Sometimes I have a player ask if they can run (usually this is if the spot is on the endline under the opponents basket). For whatever reason, I usually reply, "You'll have to ask your coach." I say it matter-of-factly, not sarcastically.

I have had coaches argue that any throw-in along the opponent's endline is a "running" throw-in. Usually I just tell the coach "YOU'RE WRONG, GIBLETHEAD!!!"

[mick]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett

I have had coaches argue that any throw-in along the opponent's endline is a "running" throw-in. Usually I just tell the coach "YOU'RE WRONG, GIBLETHEAD!!!"

I'm goin' with the eyebrow.
mick

[Kelvin green]

Mark
If you want to use preventitve officiating, why not tell the kid it's a spot throw in?
If you tell the player just something simple like "spot throw-in" or just "spot" the kids will know what they can do and there will be a lot less arguments when there is a violation.

If its a tight game with a lot of pressure. I'm going to tell the Offensive player its a spot throw in, you can go back to the wall whatever, and then I will tell Defense do not cross plane! (If there is no sideline space I will back defender up) Then if a call has to be made either way the coaches know what you have done.

[BktBallRef]

I always tell the thrower that it's a spot throw-in. I also warn the defender not to break the plane. I consider this to be preventive officiating. I can't remember the last spot violation or plane warning I had. i think both are a result of a few words.

But I think this is different than the original topic. I don't tell the player that he can throw into the BC. I don't tell him he can't throw into the goal. I don't tell him he can call TO if he can't pass the ball in.

IMO, those duties belong to the coach.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett


If there is a spot throw-in, however, I just point to the spot and don't say anything. Sometimes I have a player ask if they can run (usually this is if the spot is on the endline under the opponents basket). For whatever reason, I usually reply, "You'll have to ask your coach." I say it matter-of-factly, not sarcastically.

Isn't it easier to just say "no"?

On the topic of players asking questions, am I the only
one this happens to? As L administering the first FT,
holding out 2 fingers, or 1 & 1, or 1 finger, say loudly
"Two shots (or 1, or 1 & 1), hold your positions (or let
it hit, or on the release)". Then as you back out of the
lane, some bright bulb will ask "Hey ref, how many shots?"

[Mark Padgett]

In reply to everyone who says you should tell when this or that is the situation and the player asks you, I have to say that I must draw the line somewhere on coaching the players as to the rules. I can't tell them "all the time", and I can't tell them "none of the time".

I have chosen to be consistent and only inform on certain points. I don't want to get in a situation where a player violates and a coach complains to me that I told something to the other team to help them not violate in a different situation but I didn't tell his team. The more I can minimize the possibility of giving a coach the opportunity to complain, the more I am performing preventative officiating.

Besides, coaches perceive they have enough reasons to complain without me adding any. Notice I said perceive because most of the time coaches live in Fantasyland (with apologies to the Disney corporation).

[JeffRef]

Hmmmm,

Giblethead in Fantasyland!!!

Sounds like a box office smash hit to me!

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by JeffRef
Hmmmm,

Giblethead in Fantasyland!!!

Sounds like a box office smash hit to me!

.....starring Bobby Knight as Coach Horatio Giblethead and Rasheed Wallace as the NBA Director of Fines.

[Brad]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
In reply to everyone who says you should tell when this or that is the situation and the player asks you, I have to say that I must draw the line somewhere on coaching the players as to the rules. I can't tell them "all the time", and I can't tell them "none of the time".

Rarely do I disagree with you Mark, but I really can't believe that you are saying this.

If a kid comes out of a time-out and asks if he can run the baseline on a throw-in and your response is for him to ask his coach, how is that really possible? Should he yell across the court? Call another time-out??

By replying, "No, it's a spot throw-in." or something similar you take care of the situation within 1-2 seconds.

Telling a player whether they are allowed to run the baseline or not on a throw-in is NOT coaching - it is officiating. We tell players how many free-throws we are going to shoot, etc. We tell players what they did when they commited a foul or violation ("push", "walk", etc.)

Our main job out there on the court is communication, so we should communicate as effectively as possible to make the game run smoothly. Statements such as "You'll have to ask your coach." in response to a simple question which you know the correct answer to do not fall under the category of effective communication, IMHO.

[BktBallRef]

Brad,

How do you feel about the original post? Would you answer a kid that asked if he could throw the ball into the BC? Is there a difference in the two situations?

Tony

[Brad]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
How do you feel about the original post? Would you answer a kid that asked if he could throw the ball into the BC? Is there a difference in the two situations?

To me, the situations are similar. When a player or coach has a legitimate rules question I believe that it is our job to give them an answer. Obviously there is a time and place for this, but if the question and answer are simple, why not simply respond?

I would have responded with a simple "Yes" and play would have moved forward from that point. No technicals. No ejections. No turmoil.

"Try it and find out." is a totally unacceptable remark. "You'll have to ask your coach." is not nearly as offensive, but is certainly not helpful.

Let common sense prevail.

If you were pulled over for a traffic violation and you asked the cop, "Is driving without a front license plate tag illegal?" What sort of responce would you like to hear:

A) "Try it and find out."
B) "You'll have to read your driver's manual / consult with your driving instructor."
C) "Yes, it is in the state of Texas."

[Oz Referee]

Brad, can I say that I wholeheartedly agree. Referees are there to enforce the rules of basketball, but also to make sure that the players (and spectators) enjoy the game. If explaining a rule to a player can be done in a split second, then surely it is the professional thing to do.

Mark, IMHO your partner has done a great disservice to all referees, and someone needs to have a serious chat to him about his (or her) game management technique. A referees' coach that I once had said to me that "before doing or saying anything, always consider if it will make the situation better or worse. If the answer is worse, then there must be a better option." I have found that this adage works in basically every situation I have some up against. Clearly in this case, the referee's comments would only ever make the situation worse. In fact, you can hardly blame the player for getting a bit hot under the collar, the referee grossly inflamed the situation.

Having said all of that, I am only a FEEBLE referee, and from Australia to boot....so really, what do I know?