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Old Mon May 22, 2006, 12:18am
Courageous When Prudent
 
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2 Questions from my AAU weekend

I have 2 questions, one should have a very straight forward answer and I'm sure second will lead to a lot of different opinions.
  • 2-man. I am U1 Opening toss. Ball is tapped directly OOB behind the R. R blows whistle and asks for help which I easily give. Afterwards I was wondering if I should have blown my whistle when ball went OOB. Or to make the question more simple. Is the proper mechanic in 2-man for the U1 to have a whistle on all lines until the jump ball ends?
  • 2nd sitch (Fed rules). 2-man. Only one scoreboard working (behind White's basket). Scored tied, 6.5 seconds, Blue inbounding on its own baseline. I am Trail. Throw-in directly to post-player who immediately shoots (no dribble; just catch & shoot) and Blue makes basket and is up by 2. White grabs ball and immediately throws about a 35 foot inbound pass. While ball is in air (I am new Lead) I turn towards White's basket and notice clock is stopped at 5.0 seconds. As soon as White player catches ball the clock starts. White goes down and releases 3-pointer within last 1.0 seconds that goes in after buzzer sounds. Blue's coach is livid b/c he saw clock stop (my partner did not notice clock stoppage). We let 3-pointer stand, White wins by a point. I haven't look at rulebook yet. I did not have definite knowledge of how long clock was stopped. Even if I did have knowlege would I have any remedy for the situation? side-notes that have no bearing on situation other than the emotion of the game: quarter-final, loser goes home, 2 out-of-town teams, 5-OT (1st 3min, all other OT periods 1min)
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Last edited by Raymond; Mon May 22, 2006 at 09:50am.
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Old Mon May 22, 2006, 12:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
I have 2 questions, one should have a very straight forward answer and I'm sure second will lead to a lot of different opinions.
  • 2-man. I am U1 Opening toss. Ball is tapped directly OOB behind the R. R blows whistle and asks for help which I easily give. Afterwards I was wondering if I should have blown my whistle when ball went OOB. Or to make the question more simple. Is the proper mechanic in 2-man for the U1 to have a whistle on all line until the jump ball ends?
I do not think there is a proper mechanic. I do think that the only person that would have the best look would be the R in this situation. The U1 would be looking across the court and might not see the line. I guess if you see the ball clearly goes across the line (hits something clearly out of bounds for example) the blow the whistle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
  • 2nd sitch (Fed rules). 2-man. Only one scoreboard working (behind White's basket). 6.5 seconds, Blue inbounding on its own baseline. I am Trail. Throw-in directly to post-player who immediately shoots (no dribble; just catch & shoot) and Blue makes basket and is up by 2. White grabs ball and immediately throws about a 35 foot inbound pass. While ball is in air (I am new Lead) I turn towards White's basket and notice clock is stopped at 5.0 seconds. As soon as White player catches ball the clock starts. White goes down and releases 3-pointer within last 1.0 seconds that goes in after buzzer sounds. Blue's coach is livid b/c he saw clock stop (my partner did not notice clock). We let 3-pointer stand, White wins by a point. I haven't look at rulebook yet. I did not have definite knowledge of how long clock was stopped. Even if I did have knowlege would I have any remedy for the situation? side-notes that have no bearing on situation other than the emotion of the game: quarter-final, loser goes home, 2 out-of-town teams, 5-OT (1st 3min, all other OT periods 1min)
If you have definite knowledge of the clock status, of course you can tell your partner. This is something that you should talk about when the game comes to the end or in your pre-game with your partner.

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Old Mon May 22, 2006, 07:53am
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1) I would have to believe that the call should be U's for two reasons: 1) If it went out of bounds behind the referee, at best, the tosser would be guessing, 2) Usually, (I hope), the referee does not have the whistle in his/her mouth for the toss, so it would be difficult for him to blow the whistle.

2) I don't see how you can do anything with this one. If the clock started on the touch, you don't have any idea how much time lapsed until then.
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Old Mon May 22, 2006, 09:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
2nd sitch (Fed rules). 2-man. Only one scoreboard working (behind White's basket). 6.5 seconds, Blue inbounding on its own baseline. I am Trail. Throw-in directly to post-player who immediately shoots (no dribble; just catch & shoot) and Blue makes basket and is up by 2. White grabs ball and immediately throws about a 35 foot inbound pass. While ball is in air (I am new Lead) I turn towards White's basket and notice clock is stopped at 5.0 seconds. As soon as White player catches ball the clock starts. White goes down and releases 3-pointer within last 1.0 seconds that goes in after buzzer sounds. Blue's coach is livid b/c he saw clock stop (my partner did not notice clock). We let 3-pointer stand, White wins by a point. I haven't look at rulebook yet. I did not have definite knowledge of how long clock was stopped. Even if I did have knowlege would I have any remedy for the situation? side-notes that have no bearing on situation other than the emotion of the game: quarter-final, loser goes home, 2 out-of-town teams, 5-OT (1st 3min, all other OT periods 1min)
Sounds to me like the timer stopped the clock after the made basket, for whatever reason.

We have this discussion every so often, what do you do if the timer screws up at the end of the game blah blah blah. In your play I think the best thing to have done is once you are certain the clock has stopped blow the whistle to correct an obvious timing error. In your case I think that would have been when the pass was still in the air. Then take off whatever amount of time you feel is needed. And before starting the game again go have a talk with the timer.
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Old Tue May 23, 2006, 10:10am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
In your case I think that would have been when the pass was still in the air. Then take off whatever amount of time you feel is needed.
Yeah, but...... I didn't know how long the clock was stopped, so I would be totally guessing. I guess the only definite knowlege on this play would be my partner's 5-second throw-in count, but he wasn't aware the clock had stopped.

I need to grab my NFHS rulebook.
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Old Tue May 23, 2006, 10:18am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
Yeah, but...... I didn't know how long the clock was stopped, so I would be totally guessing. I guess the only definite knowlege on this play would be my partner's 5-second throw-in count, but he wasn't aware the clock had stopped.

I need to grab my NFHS rulebook.
Grab it. There's nothing in it about this type of play.
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Old Tue May 23, 2006, 06:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
Yeah, but...... I didn't know how long the clock was stopped, so I would be totally guessing. I guess the only definite knowlege on this play would be my partner's 5-second throw-in count, but he wasn't aware the clock had stopped.

I need to grab my NFHS rulebook.
If someone's minding the clock then you have definite knowledge of when it stopped and definite knowledge of how much time went off, right?

You won't find this in the book, but it should be the First Commandment: Thou shalt not trust thy table.
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Old Tue May 23, 2006, 07:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
I have 2 questions, one should have a very straight forward answer and I'm sure second will lead to a lot of different opinions.
  • 2-man. I am U1 Opening toss. Ball is tapped directly OOB behind the R. R blows whistle and asks for help which I easily give. Afterwards I was wondering if I should have blown my whistle when ball went OOB. Or to make the question more simple. Is the proper mechanic in 2-man for the U1 to have a whistle on all lines until the jump ball ends?
While there is nothing specific in the mechanics manual about coverage prior to the direction of play being established, I was taught years ago in DC that the R has the responsibility for the sideline behind him and the U has the sideline his is on plus BOTH endlines because he can run down to either one as needed while the R can't. As for blowing the whistle on this specific play, I was taught to handle it exactly as you and your partner did in the game. The R has the whistle and then can ask for help with direction if he needs it. The U should only help with this call unless the R misses something obvious such as the ball hitting a bleacher or spectator and rebounding back into play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
  • 2nd sitch (Fed rules). 2-man. Only one scoreboard working (behind White's basket). Scored tied, 6.5 seconds, Blue inbounding on its own baseline. I am Trail. Throw-in directly to post-player who immediately shoots (no dribble; just catch & shoot) and Blue makes basket and is up by 2. White grabs ball and immediately throws about a 35 foot inbound pass. While ball is in air (I am new Lead) I turn towards White's basket and notice clock is stopped at 5.0 seconds. As soon as White player catches ball the clock starts. White goes down and releases 3-pointer within last 1.0 seconds that goes in after buzzer sounds. Blue's coach is livid b/c he saw clock stop (my partner did not notice clock stoppage). We let 3-pointer stand, White wins by a point. I haven't look at rulebook yet. I did not have definite knowledge of how long clock was stopped. Even if I did have knowlege would I have any remedy for the situation? side-notes that have no bearing on situation other than the emotion of the game: quarter-final, loser goes home, 2 out-of-town teams, 5-OT (1st 3min, all other OT periods 1min)
First, this is downright unfortunate. It seems that a timing error changed the outcome of this contest. However, since this was AAU and in some places of the country that organization uses NCAA rules for play maybe the timer was correct. What did your assignor tell you? Were you provided a written summary sheet of the tournament rules at the game site?

Ok, now let's assume that the timer was incorrect and that NFHS rules were in effect. You state that this contest went 5 OT periods. Did the timer stop the clock in the final minute of play on made baskets in any of the prior extra periods or regulation? Did you look for this? It seems very strange that the timer would get it right for the prior OTs but screw up in the last one.
Perhaps this rule mix up could have been detected earlier in the game and taken care of with a chat with the timer before the 5th OT. Something to think about for your own clock management skills.

As for what to do to fix this once it has happened. I'm with Tony that a whistle during the throw-in pass and a clock correction by your partner's, who was the R, five second count is the best method.

There is some rules support for this in the books.
"If the referee determines that the clock was not started or stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official's count or other official information can be used to make a correction." (5-10-2)
This rule and the casebook plays listed under 5.10 have good information may apply here, but the following play in particular stands out to me:
5.10.2 SITUATION: Following a violation in the fourth quarter, there are five seconds on the clock as A1 is bounced the ball for a throw-in. The throw-in is completed to A2. The official properly signals the clock to start and immediately begins a closely-guarded count on A2. The official reaches a count of three seconds when B1 fouls A2. The official stops play properly and reports the foul at the table. The timer reports that he/she did not start the clock when the throw-in was touched by A2. The clock still shows five seconds. RULING: The referee will order the clock set at two seconds. The referee has definite knowledge of the amount of time involved in this situation by using the closely-guarded count.

However, if you allow the play to continue, you really are in a mess. As you said you don't have definite knowledge of how long the pass was in the air. Your partner's five second count would have stopped on the release. If the game winning shot is made with 1 second left, it probably didn't get off in time, but not only can't you say that for sure, but the player may have done something different with a different number on the clock. That is of course if the player could even see the clock.
This is a major problem of having only one game clock in a gym.

If you do choose to allow play to continue, the only advice I can think of in this case would be for you to start a count once you notice that the clock is stopped and if your count exceeds the time you saw on the clock, blow your whistle and declare the period over except for a try that is already in flight.
I recall reading something detailing handling a clock which fails to start this way, but I can't find it right now. Maybe it was a casebook play, maybe it wasn't.
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Old Wed May 24, 2006, 07:33am
Courageous When Prudent
 
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Clock Situation...

Thanks for your input Nevada.

To answer a couple of your questions.
  • We did get a summary of rules. We were using NFHS rules with modifications for T-O's, blow-outs, multiple OT's
  • Assignor was nowhere around (He's a friend from my HS board, he was working games elsewhere. But tourney director was at the table when incident happened; he noticed clock stoppage also. He helped by keeping the very muscular, losing assistant coach out our sitting area after the game .
  • At the end of the 3rd OT White hit a 3-pointer to tie game with about 3 seconds remaining and the timer didn't stop the clock. I remember distinctly b/c Blue neither called time-out nor attempted to inbound the ball. Time ran out with the ball bouncing underneath the basket

This is one I'm going to send into our former HS board interpreter. She's loves dissecting sitiuations like this.
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