rolling the ball in the backcourt

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Dribble

I think you should post the entire rule reference of 4-36 with all articles for everyone. You're taking parts of it here and there to make it applicable to the scenario to justify your argument.

I don't have an electronic version of the rulebook, so I can't cut-and-paste it for you. But JR is not taking parts "here and there". He is giving you the applicable article. 4-36-2b clearly states that when the stoppage (including an inadvertant whistle, see 4-36-1) occurs during a throw-in that play is resumed with that throw-in. Yes, even tho there is no team control.

If the stoppage occurs when there is no team control, and it's NOT during a throw-in (or FT) or when either team is entitled to a throw-in, THEN you go to the arrow.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Dribble

Realistically, I'd probably give the ball to team A, but I want to throw this other rule reference out there for discussion.

I agree with BadNewsRef in that the throw-in should be resumed by the alternating possession arrow. Part c of the same rule that JR quoted (4-36-2c) says, "An alternating-possession throw-in when the point of interruption is such that neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is involved."

When I read that rule I am led to believe that the play does not involve an infraction because to me that's either a violation or a foul and not an inadvertent whistle.

Thoughts?!?

Thoughts? Yeah. You're wrong. And you've already been given the rule reference.

4-36-2(b)
Play shall be resumed by a free throw or a throw-in when the stoppage occurred during this activity or if a team is entitled to such.

The IW occurs during the throw-in, as the throw-in has not ended because the ball has not been touched inbounds. Since the throw-in is the POI, that's how the game is restarted. The rule doesn't require a violation or a foul.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

...team A was in control, so POI would not apply - there was just no player control.
Were you implying that perhaps because of no player control, then the POI would be correct?

Team A was not in team control. Regarding a throwin, team control is established when a player on the floor establishes player control. Player control is established when a player is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds.

[jkjenning]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
team control is established when a player on the floor establishes player control.

Hmmm, I see your point. My twisted mind was thinking this: the throw-in ends when the ball touches the court... but I see now that the count is the only thing that ends at that point (4-42-4)... the throw-in actually ends once the ball has been touched by an inbounds player.

Ok, thanks Mark. I'll have to reread this thread later and make sure I am 'walking away' with all my facts straight. It was making sense to me that once the throw-in ended, team control must begin - and that is right except that the throw-in doesn't end simply because the ball contacts the floor.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dribble

I think you should post the entire rule reference of 4-36 with all articles for everyone. You're taking parts of it here and there to make it applicable to the scenario to justify your argument.

OK, since I believe that Chuck and JR are correct I'll post it:

SECTION 36 POINT OF INTERRUPTION
ART. 1 . . . Method of resuming play due to an official's accidental whistle, an interrupted game, as in 5-4-3, a correctable error, as in 2-10-6, a double personal, double technical or simultaneous foul, as in 4-19-8 and 4-19-10.
ART. 2…Play shall be resumed by:
a. A throw-in to the team that was in control at a spot nearest to where the ball was located when the stoppage occurred.
b. A free throw or a throw-in when the stoppage occurred during this activity or if a team is entitled to such.
c. An alternating-possession throw-in when the point of interruption is such that neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is involved.


Now you can see that by the structure of article 2 this is a step by step process. You first see if part a applies, if so you award the ball to that team. If not, you go to part b. If part b applies that team gets the ball for that type of restart, if not then go to part c, which is the AP arrow.

IOW the AP arrow is used as a last resort after all other possible ways of awarding possession are exhausted.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

Hmmm, I see your point. My twisted mind was thinking this: the throw-in ends when the ball touches the court... but I see now that the count is the only thing that ends at that point (4-42-4)... the throw-in actually ends once the ball has been touched by an inbounds player.

All right, I'll pick the nit here. The count ends when the ball is released by the thrower. Touching the court is irrelevant here.

[jkjenning]

Thank you, Snaqwells. I wish I had time to generate a "nit-picking" gif - ah, the imagery!!

This was a good thread to highlight the importance of thinking over the rules before some unique situation occurs requiring special rules knowledge! So, in this case we "stop the step-by-step process" at 4-36-2b and the AP arrow does not come into play since the throw-in was still in progress. If a player had touched the ball without controlling the ball then the AP arrow would be used (4-36-2c) because the throw-in was complete (4-42-5) but no team control had been established (4-12-2).

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

Thank you, Snaqwells. I wish I had time to generate a "nit-picking" gif - ah, the imagery!!

This was a good thread to highlight the importance of thinking over the rules before some unique situation occurs requiring special rules knowledge! So, in this case we "stop the step-by-step process" at 4-36-2b and the AP arrow does not come into play since the throw-in was still in progress. If a player had touched the ball without controlling the ball then the AP arrow would be used (4-36-2c) because the throw-in was complete (4-42-5) but no team control had been established (4-12-2).

Correct. Now you've got it.