What do you do with the ball?

[ChrisSportsFan]

This situation happened in a tournament 3 weekends ago. I have thrown it around with a few fellow officials and thought I'd post it here for discussion.

A1 gets a D rebound and is immediatly surrounded. She swings her elbows wildly and connects with B1. I'm lead and get a quick whistle and close in. B1 recovers her balance and gives a big shove back. Whistle back in mouth, blow blow blow, and everyone separates.

By rule, both players are ejected and we did not shoot any freethrows but what do you do with the ball? After this gets kicked around here, I'll pass along what we did.

[JRutledge]

What did you call? That might help to answer your question.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ChrisSportsFan

A1 gets a D rebound and is immediatly surrounded. She swings her elbows wildly and connects with B1. I'm lead and get a quick whistle and close in. B1 recovers her balance and gives a big shove back. Whistle back in mouth, blow blow blow, and everyone separates.

By rule, both players are ejected and we did not shoot any freethrows but what do you do with the ball? After this gets kicked around here, I'll pass along what we did.

By rule, you were wrong.

If you ejected both players, you have to call it the following way:
1) Flagrant personal foul on A1 for the elbow. That foul call makes the ball dead.
-this is followed by -
2) A flagrant technical foul on B1 for the retaliation.
False double foul. Penalize the fouls in the order that they occurred. B1's sub shoots 2 FT's first. Then any A player(s) shoot the 2 technical FT's. The lanes are empty on all FT's. Team A gets the ball for a spot throw-in at center after the FT's for B1's flagrant technical foul.

It's a real stretch in situations like this if you called it a double fighting foul imo.

Btw, if B1 just shoved and didn't swing, then personally I'd just call a "T" on her instead of the flagrant "T". I kinda like to make sure the instigator is the one getting nailed in these situations, if I can.

[tmp44]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

By rule, you were wrong.

If you ejected both players, you have to call it the following way:
1) Flagrant personal foul on A1 for the elbow. That foul call makes the ball dead.
-this is followed by -
2) A flagrant technical foul on B1 for the retaliation.
False double foul. Penalize the fouls in the order that they occurred. B1's sub shoots 2 FT's first. Then any A player(s) shoot the 2 technical FT's. The lanes are empty on all FT's. Team A gets the ball for a spot throw-in at center after the FT's for B1's flagrant technical foul.

It's a real stretch in situations like this if you called it a double fighting foul imo.

Btw, if B1 just shoved and didn't swing, then personally I'd just call a "T" on her instead of the flagrant "T". I kinda like to make sure the instigator is the one getting nailed in these situations, if I can.

JR hit this one right on the head. They were not simultaneous, so you shoot in the order the Ts occurred. Since the T on B1 was second, A gets the ball, halfcourt.

Could you explain why the elbow was considered flagrant? I don't think this is a situation where you should consider a fight be instigated. The way you described it, it seems like it should have just been a PC on A1 followed by a technical (not flagrant) on B1, but I wasn't there either.....

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tmp44

JR hit this one right on the head. They were not simultaneous, so you shoot in the order the Ts occurred. Since the T on B1 was second, A gets the ball, halfcourt.

This is why I asked what they called. There could not be two Ts unless there was another foul called after the elbow connected. The elbow thrown could not be a T at all. If anything it was a flagrant foul. But we do not know that until Chris explains what they called. There could have been 3 or 4 calls depending on what they called.

Originally Posted by tmp44

Could you explain why the elbow was considered flagrant? I don't think this is a situation where you should consider a fight be instigated. The way you described it, it seems like it should have just been a PC on A1 followed by a technical (not flagrant) on B1, but I wasn't there either.....

Obviously I was not there, but a flagrant foul does not have to be associated only with a fight. If the elbow was done on purpose in a savage nature, then you could easily call a flagrant foul. The second foul would be a flagrant T if you deemed the pushing as fighting.

Peace

[ChrisSportsFan]

The excessive swinging of the elbows and connecting by A1 was called Flagrant. She had earlier been penalized with a violation (player and coach inderstood the rule/penalty) when she swung em and missed. This time, her elbows were most definately intended to bring pain.

B1's push was during the dead ball and a flagrant foul was called. Either 10-3-8 or 9 apply.

We did not shoot any free throws (should we have?)

We resumed play at POI where A1 had secured the rebound (should we have?)

[Texas Aggie]

If you are going to call the initial personal foul flagrant and the retaliation foul flagrant, the JurRef laid it out correctly for you. Yes, you should have shot free throws and no, you shouldn't have resumed play at the POI.

The only thing I would add to what JurRef said is don't go up to a coach and explain and say, "false double foul" -- at least not initially. Likely, they've never heard of that term. Assuming HS rules, just say, we enforce each foul independently, and in order of occurance, which is similar to what the def. of a FDF is.

Now, give us the interp. for mens/women's NCAA, as I think its different.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ChrisSportsFan

The excessive swinging of the elbows and connecting by A1 was called Flagrant. She had earlier been penalized with a violation (player and coach inderstood the rule/penalty) when she swung em and missed. This time, her elbows were most definately intended to bring pain.

B1's push was during the dead ball and a flagrant foul was called. Either 10-3-8 or 9 apply.

We did not shoot any free throws (should we have?)

We resumed play at POI where A1 had secured the rebound (should we have?)

These are two different fouls on two separate occasions. One happen during a live ball foul. Another took place during a dead ball. You would have to penalize each as separate fouls. You would shoot the FTs in the order the fouls were committed (Team B first, Team A second). The only way this would have been a double foul if both took place at approximately the same time or within the same act.

Peace

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

These are two different fouls on two separate occasions. One happen during a live ball foul. Another took place during a dead ball. You would have to penalize each as separate fouls. You would shoot the FTs in the order the fouls were committed (Team B first, Team A second). The only way this would have been a double foul if both took place at approximately the same time or within the same act.

Peace

I presume team A will then get the ball at midcourt.??

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

Now, give us the interp. for mens/women's NCAA, as I think its different.

It would not be different in Men's basketball. You still would have two separate fouls.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ChrisSportsFan

I presume team A will then get the ball at midcourt.??

Yes, because the second foul was a T.

Peace

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

Now, give us the interp. for mens/women's NCAA, as I think its different.

Rut is correct. In NCAAM, the penalties would be the same. The elbow is a flagrant personal, so 2 shots and ejection. The push occurs during a dead ball, so it is a flagrant technical, and does NOT go to the POI. A flagrant technical carries a penalty of 2 shots and the ball.

So you'd still do it the same way JR described. I think that the women's side would do it the same way.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

So you'd still do it the same way JR described. I think that the women's side would do it the same way.

Yep!

Good grief - I tried to just respond with Yep! but that was too short and I had to add more to it...now even the freaking board is making short jokes!

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Yep!

Good grief - I tried to just respond with Yep! but that was too short and I had to add more to it...now even the freaking board is making short jokes!

Yep!