Airborne Fumble - Rule question.

[Jurassic Referee]

[QUOTE=Camron Rust]So, you're saying it's a travel to shoot the ball and catch the "rebound" before you land from the original shot? QUOTE]You can legally shoot the ball or pass the ball while you're up there, as per R4-44-3(b). The rule doesn't mention fumbling and recovering that fumble. As TH said, he went up with player control and came down with player control....and no other player touched the ball while he was up there.

Make that legal and you're gonna see a heckuva lot of deliberate fumbles when a shooter sees a defender's big hand(s) over top of him when he's up in the air.

[psycho_ref]

Well, if they are deliberate, then they are not fumbles.

That's like saying, 'you will see alot of deliberate airball shots being passed to one's self'. It's judgement.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

So, you're saying it's a travel to shoot the ball and catch the "rebound" before you land from the original shot?

This is exactly the same sequence of events...PC...PC lost...PC. The fact that one is a shot and the other isn't has no impact. The element that makes the rebound legal is the loss of PC. It doesn't distinguish how it is lost.

C'mon Camron, you're smarter than that. What a foolish suggestion.

4-43-3b clearly states that when an airborne player leaves the floor, the ball MUST be released on a shot or pass before he returns to the floor. If he jumps, fumbles, and returns the floor with the ball, he didn't shoot it or pass it, did it? No, I didn't think so, unless you've changed the definition of a try or a pass.

[Jurassic Referee]

I'm still waiting for our resident IAABO rules interpreter to weigh in with his learned opinion. For some reason, he seems to be avoiding telling us what his take on this one is.

You there, Chuckster?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

C'mon Camron, you're smarter than that. What a foolish suggestion.

4-43-3b clearly states that when an airborne player leaves the floor, the ball MUST be released on a shot or pass before he returns to the floor. If he jumps, fumbles, and returns the floor with the ball, he didn't shoot it or pass it, did it? No, I didn't think so, unless you've changed the definition of a try or a pass.

And as I posted much earlier in this thread that rule isn't applicable because it comes under the heading which includes "while holding the ball." The rule you are citing definitely governs the play in which the player is holding the ball the entire time. However, it is not clear that it is controlling for this scenario in which PC is lost with a fumble in mid-air.
I'm adding this to my gray area list of NFHS rules.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Camron, I don't think that the "PC lost" part is the same for a fumble as for a shot. With a shot, there's PC, then no PC, then the same person can catch the ball and dribble again. Not so on a fumble. So I don't see how they can be the same sequence of events. Or are you saying the fumble in this case is really a shot, so the fumbling aspects don't matter?

I'm not saying a fumble is a shot. Just that there is no real significance of it being a shot aside from the loss of player control. The manner in which player control is lost is not relevant...just that it is. To travel, you must have continuous player control (holding the ball).

[ChuckElias]

Ok, I know this is an old thread but I was talking to Nevada about it just this morning, and it reminded me that there was a ruling on this printed in this year's NCAA men's basketball officiating program. I'll just type it out and you can hash out whether we should apply it to our high school games.

Play: AFter ending a dribble, A1 leaves the playing court to attempt a try for goal. While airborne, A1 fumbles the ball. A1 (a) recovers the fumble while airborne, or (b) recovers the fumble after returning to the floor. A1 dribbles the ball. The official calls a violation. Is the official correct?

Ruling: Yes. In (a) and (b) A1 is permitted to recover the ball but after recovering the ball, A1 started a second dribble. However, if a fumble is touched by another player and then recovered by A1, while airborne of after a return to the floor, A1 is allowed to start another dribble. If A1 had not previously dribbled the ball, and while airborne fumbled and recovered the ball (while airborne or after a return to the floor), he is permitted to start a dribble.

I added the emphasis in the ruling, b/c that's what we had been discussing. The rationale is clearly what Camron had argued earlier (and I hinted at). You're always allowed to recover a fumble. And since a fumble means loss of player control, it's ok to recover in the air and then land.

Now, should we use this in high school games? I don't see why not. The principle is the same in FED rules. No control, no travel. Hope that's interesting to somebody.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by He who no longer exists

blah blah blah

I thought you left?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Now, should we use this in high school games? I don't see why not.

And I don't see why.

I though that you were gonna try and get a FED ruling on this.

[OHBBREF]

Based on my understanding of the three play scenarios, A1 the dribbler can legally gain possession of the ball, (s)he can not move either foot once (s)he lands on the floor or while re-controlling the ball after landing on the floor.
(S)He can shoot, pass it to a team mate or call a TO and or hold the ball with a potential closely guarded count.

A1 muffed and or fumbled the ball.


Also, take a look at NCAA BR-82, A.R. 82. It states that once A1 returns to the floor, (s)he cannot dribble the ball again.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Camron, I don't think that the "PC lost" part is the same for a fumble as for a shot. With a shot, there's PC, then no PC, then the same person can catch the ball and dribble again. Not so on a fumble. So I don't see how they can be the same sequence of events. Or are you saying the fumble in this case is really a shot, so the fumbling aspects don't matter?

So you going to grant a timeout during a fumble?

PC is PC, it's either there or isn't...by rule it is lost on a try and on a fumble.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

So you going to grant a timeout during a fumble?

PC is PC, it's either there or isn't...by rule it is lost on a try and on a fumble.

Okay, then why is it okay to retrieve a shot and dribble again, but it's not okay to retreive a fumble and dribble again? They're obviously not the same. I'm not going to grant a timeout in either one, but that doesn't make them the same thing.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Okay, then why is it okay to retrieve a shot and dribble again, but it's not okay to retreive a fumble and dribble again? They're obviously not the same. I'm not going to grant a timeout in either one, but that doesn't make them the same thing.

Because a try is a permanent loss of PC, a fumble is a momentary loss of PC.

A try is a purposeful loss of PC, a fumble is an accidental loss of PC.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Because a try is a permanent loss of PC, a fumble is a momentary loss of PC.

A try is a purposeful loss of PC, a fumble is an accidental loss of PC.

Maybe you don't care but unless I misunderstand what you're saying the ncaa doesn't agree with you.

A.R. 82. After ending a dribble, A1 leaves the playing court to attempt a try for goal. While airborne, A1 fumbles the ball. A1 (a) recovers the fumble while airborne, or (b) recovers the fumble after returning to the floor. A1 dribbles the ball. The official calls a violation. Is the official correct? RULING: Yes. In (a) and (b) A1 is permitted to recover the ball but after recovering the ball, A1 started a second dribble. However, if a fumble is touched by another player and then recovered by A1, while airborne or after a return to the floor, A1 is allowed to start another dribble. If A1 had not previously dribbled the ball, and while airborne fumbled and recovered the ball (while airborne or after a return to the floor), he is permitted to start a dribble.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Maybe you don't care but unless I misunderstand what you're saying the ncaa doesn't agree with you.

Yes you misunderstood...I was asked what was different between a try and a fumble that would mean A1 could dribble after the try but not dribble after a fumble.

Nothing in that case play disagrees with anything I said, the NCAA ruling is it is a violation if A1 fumbles THEN DRIBBLES after A1 recovers.