Airborne Fumble - Rule question.

psycho_ref

A1 is dribbling in A's frontcourt. A1 picks up his/her dribble and jumps off the ground in an attempt to release the ball for a jumpshot. A1 fumbles the ball while airborne (it slips out of his/her hand), and recovers the ball in (a) before he/she returns to the ground (b) after he/she returns to the ground and (c) after he/she returns to the ground and the ball bounces on the ground once.

Has A1 violated? And if not, what can A1 do now?

Please quote any rules and rule numbers/case numbers.

Thanks.

Jurassic Referee

psycho_ref wrote
A1 is dribbling in A's frontcourt. A1 picks up his/her dribble and jumps off the ground in an attempt to release the ball for a jumpshot. A1 fumbles the ball while airborne (it slips out of his/her hand), and recovers the ball in (a) before he/she returns to the ground (b) after he/she returns to the ground and (c) after he/she returns to the ground and the ball bounces on the ground once.

Has A1 violated? And if not, what can A1 do now?

Please quote any rules and rule numbers/case numbers.

Thanks.

Unless the ball was touched by another player during the fumble, the correct call is a travel in the first case and an illegal second dribble in the next 2 cases. Rule 4-44-3(b) and rule 9-5.

Nevadaref

I disagree with JR. I believe that the action in all three plays is legal. The player FUMBLED the ball and therefore was not in control, thus couldn't travel.

RULE 4, SECTION 21 FUMBLE
A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player's grasp.

RULE 4, SECTION 44 TRAVELING
Traveling (running with the ball) is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball. The limits on foot movements are as follows:...

If the player is not holding the ball, then the rest of this rule is not applicable.

If the player intentionally dropped the ball, as opposed to fumbling it (which is by definition accidental), then that would be traveling per 4-44-3c.

Nevadaref

Sorry, forgot your second part:
A1 can do anything except dribble again. That would be a double dribble violation.

Fumble, dribble, fumble is okay.
Dribble, fumble, dribble is a violation.

Jurassic Referee

Nevadaref wrote
I disagree with JR. I believe that the action in all three plays is legal. The player FUMBLED the ball and therefore was not in control, thus couldn't travel.

Nevada, did you read the original post? Maybe you should go back and re-read it. You know better than that. The player fumbled the ball after he became an airborne shooter.

A1 picked up the dribble. A1 then jumped to shoot. While airborne, A1 fumbled the ball. A1 recovered the fumble without any other player touching the ball. A1 then came back down . If A1 came back down with the ball, it's a travel as per the rule that I cited. If A1 drops the ball after the fumble and then is the first to touch it after he comes down, then that's an illegal second dribble. None of the plays are legal.

ChuckElias

Jurassic Referee wrote
The player fumbled the ball after he became an airborne shooter.

So you can only recover your own fumble if you fumbled with your feet on the ground? 😕

Jurassic Referee

ChuckElias wrote
So you can only recover your own fumble if you fumbled with your feet on the ground? :confused:

Who said anything about that?

A player who has left his feet with player control to shoot then fumbles the ball while airborne, recovers that fumble while still airborne, and then comes back down with player control without shooting or passing the ball? Are you saying that isn't traveling?

Nevadaref

Jurassic Referee wrote
Who said anything about that?

A player who has left his feet with player control to shoot then fumbles the ball while airborne, recovers that fumble while still airborne, and then comes back down with player control without shooting or passing the ball? Are you saying that isn't traveling?

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

The key is that player control was lost. Whether the player is airborne or not when that happens doesn't matter. There is no traveling violation.

4-44-3b is written such that the player has control the whole time. I don't think that it applies here.

Lastly, a fumble is not a dribble, so the play in which the ball is recovered after the player comes back down and the ball hit the floor is certainly not a travel.

Jurassic Referee

Nevadaref wrote
Yes, that's what I'm saying.

The key is that player control was lost. Whether the player is airborne or not when that happens doesn't matter. There is no traveling violation.

4-44-3b is written such that the player has control the whole time. I don't think that it applies here.

Lastly, a fumble is not a dribble, so the play in which the ball is recovered after the player comes back down and the ball hit the floor is certainly not a travel.

Nevada, I ain't gonna change your mind obviously. May I suggest that you take this one to your state interpreter. You're wrong.

Camron Rust

Gotta go with Nevada on this one. A fumble, by definition, is not a dribble. Therefore, it can't be an illegal dribble. Also, the travel rule JR referred to is releasing the ball on a dribble after lifting the pivot foot. Again, it is not a dribble...therefore not a travel. A fumbled ball (judgement of official) can always be picked up.

BktBallRef

psycho_ref wrote
A1 is dribbling in A's frontcourt. A1 picks up his/her dribble and jumps off the ground in an attempt to release the ball for a jumpshot. A1 fumbles the ball while airborne (it slips out of his/her hand), and recovers the ball in (a) before he/she returns to the ground (b) after he/she returns to the ground and (c) after he/she returns to the ground and the ball bounces on the ground once.

(a) Traveling. It makes no difference what happens while he's airborne. He had PC when he left the floor and he had PC when he landed. That's traveling.

(b) & (c) Legal.

refTN

I agree with Nevada on this but BBallref has a good point on A although if I am on the floor I think I would deem it legal. Anytime I see a fumble I automatically think "Get it, but don't dribble"

Camron Rust

BktBallRef wrote
(a) Traveling. It makes no difference what happens while he's airborne. He had PC when he left the floor and he had PC when he landed. That's traveling.

So, you're saying it's a travel to shoot the ball and catch the "rebound" before you land from the original shot? 😉

This is exactly the same sequence of events...PC...PC lost...PC. The fact that one is a shot and the other isn't has no impact. The element that makes the rebound legal is the loss of PC. It doesn't distinguish how it is lost.

rainmaker

Camron Rust wrote
So, you're saying it's a travel to shoot the ball and catch the "rebound" before you land from the original shot? 😉

This is exactly the same sequence of events...PC...PC lost...PC. The fact that one is a shot and the other isn't has no impact. The element that makes the rebound legal is the loss of PC. It doesn't distinguish how it is lost.

Camron, I don't think that the "PC lost" part is the same for a fumble as for a shot. With a shot, there's PC, then no PC, then the same person can catch the ball and dribble again. Not so on a fumble. So I don't see how they can be the same sequence of events. Or are you saying the fumble in this case is really a shot, so the fumbling aspects don't matter?

radhesh

Hmm ....
who is correct..

Jurassic Referee

Camron Rust wrote
So, you're saying it's a travel to shoot the ball and catch the "rebound" before you land from the original shot? QUOTE]You can legally shoot the ball or pass the ball while you're up there, as per R4-44-3(b). The rule doesn't mention fumbling and recovering that fumble. As TH said, he went up with player control and came down with player control....and no other player touched the ball while he was up there.

Make that legal and you're gonna see a heckuva lot of deliberate fumbles when a shooter sees a defender's big hand(s) over top of him when he's up in the air.

psycho_ref

Well, if they are deliberate, then they are not fumbles.

That's like saying, 'you will see alot of deliberate airball shots being passed to one's self'. It's judgement. 😎

BktBallRef

Camron Rust wrote
So, you're saying it's a travel to shoot the ball and catch the "rebound" before you land from the original shot? 😉

This is exactly the same sequence of events...PC...PC lost...PC. The fact that one is a shot and the other isn't has no impact. The element that makes the rebound legal is the loss of PC. It doesn't distinguish how it is lost.

C'mon Camron, you're smarter than that. What a foolish suggestion.

4-43-3b clearly states that when an airborne player leaves the floor, the ball MUST be released on a shot or pass before he returns to the floor. If he jumps, fumbles, and returns the floor with the ball, he didn't shoot it or pass it, did it? No, I didn't think so, unless you've changed the definition of a try or a pass.

Jurassic Referee

I'm still waiting for our resident IAABO rules interpreter to weigh in with his learned opinion. For some reason, he seems to be avoiding telling us what his take on this one is.

You there, Chuckster? 🙂

Nevadaref

BktBallRef wrote
C'mon Camron, you're smarter than that. What a foolish suggestion.

4-43-3b clearly states that when an airborne player leaves the floor, the ball MUST be released on a shot or pass before he returns to the floor. If he jumps, fumbles, and returns the floor with the ball, he didn't shoot it or pass it, did it? No, I didn't think so, unless you've changed the definition of a try or a pass.

And as I posted much earlier in this thread that rule isn't applicable because it comes under the heading which includes "while holding the ball." The rule you are citing definitely governs the play in which the player is holding the ball the entire time. However, it is not clear that it is controlling for this scenario in which PC is lost with a fumble in mid-air.
I'm adding this to my gray area list of NFHS rules.