Fumble question

[Adam]

Okay, I no-called this in my last hs game of the year, and I've been wondering about it ever since.
A1 has the ball in the FC near the division line, with B1 right up on him with good D. He has used his dribble. B2 is on his way. A1, signficantly taller than B1, attempts to raise the ball over his head. In doing so, he loses control of the ball (without B1's direct help) and it goes into the air at an angle such that he must take a couple of steps to retrieve the ball.
I held my whistle because I felt he had fumbled the ball. My question is, does a fumble need to bounce in order for a player to be able to move his feet to retrieve it?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
My question is, does a fumble need to bounce in order for a player to be able to move his feet to retrieve it?

No, it doesn't need to bounce. You called this correctly, despite the howls of protest from the fans (and probalby the opposing players and coaches).

If your area allows "unapproved signals" you can give the "juggling" move to show that you saw the play and judged it to be legal. Won't help with the fans. Might help with the coach.

[Nevadaref]

Nope. I say you got it right. The whole gym can scream for a travel and I'm not blowing my whistle.

It often takes some guts to make the right call, not the popular call. I always strive to call what is right, not what is accepted.

[Adam]

Thanks. I couldn't find anything that said it needed to bounce, but thought I missed something. I was T table side, and I heard the opposing coach say something like, "Isn't he watching?"

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
Okay, I no-called this in my last hs game of the year, and I've been wondering about it ever since.
A1 has the ball in the FC near the division line, with B1 right up on him with good D. He has used his dribble. B2 is on his way. A1, signficantly taller than B1, attempts to raise the ball over his head. In doing so, he loses control of the ball (without B1's direct help) and it goes into the air at an angle such that he must take a couple of steps to retrieve the ball.
I held my whistle because I felt he had fumbled the ball. My question is, does a fumble need to bounce in order for a player to be able to move his feet to retrieve it?

Despite the roar of concurrence, I think there's a distinction to be made . . .

The definition of 'fumble' includes the phrase '. . . a loss of control when the ball accidentally drops or slips . . .'.

Are y'all saying that this covers the MIS-EXECUTION OF A MANOUEVER. For example, I try to throw a baseball pass full court. Because I am not well coached and fail to keep two hands on the ball as I bring it up (and/or I don't have hands like Dee Brown the Elder), the ball flips out of my hands, backwards. This does happen. Is it a 'fumble' which oughtn't (by rule) count against me as a dribble?

I don't agree. This isn't an accident, which, animated by the spirit of the game, of just reward and just punishment, implies 'incidental'. It's (and this is NOT a defined term but maybe should be) a 'flub'.

[Adam]

Like it or not, you can't make up your own rules. The rule says fumble and doesn't differentiate between what happens before the fumble. A fumble is nearly always the result of a mis-play. Can you give me an example of what you would call a fumble?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker
It's (and this is NOT a defined term but maybe should be) a 'flub'.

Good point.

From dictionary.com:

Flub: To botch; bungle.

Fumble: To make a mess of; bungle. See Synonyms at botch.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
Like it or not, you can't make up your own rules. The rule says fumble and doesn't differentiate between what happens before the fumble. A fumble is nearly always the result of a mis-play. Can you give me an example of what you would call a fumble?

1. I try to pick up my dribble. I fail to grasp the ball cleanly and it falls to the floor, then I secure it.

I think this is the simple case. I fumbled the ball, but, because I didn't have control, nothing happened. The 'fumble' exemption isn't really required.

2. I am pivoting to avoid defensive pressure and the ball slips out of my hands; before they can grab it, I grab it.

I think this is the exemption case. Why does it exist at all? Where else in the game is there a rule (or an exemption to a rule) which seeks to protect a player from his/her own mistakes?

3. As I described before, I try to throw a baseball pass and flub it. I think this ISN'T a fumble. It's a flub, and if I pick it up, not having my dribble left, I double dribbled.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker

3. As I described before, I try to throw a baseball pass and flub it. I think this ISN'T a fumble. It's a flub, and if I pick it up, not having my dribble left, I double dribbled.

[/B]

Call what you want and move on. You obviously don't believe any of us. Or the rule and case books.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Call what you want and move on. You obviously don't believe any of us. Or the rule and case books. [/B]

Is that what you're saying? Or are you being dismissive? Don't be. It doesn't become you.

What if the ball comes forward but off the side of the hand? IS THAT A BAD PASS OR A FUMBLE?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker
Because I am not well coached and fail to keep two hands on the ball as I bring it up, the ball FLIPS out of my hands, backwards.

"Because I am not well coached and fail to keep two hands on the ball as I bring it up, the ball SLIPS out of my hands, backwards."

No difference.

Same thing.

No violation to retrieve it.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Call what you want and move on. You obviously don't believe any of us. Or the rule and case books. [/B]

Is that what you're saying? Or are you being dismissive? Don't be. It doesn't become you.

What if the ball comes forward but off the side of the hand? IS THAT A BAD PASS OR A FUMBLE?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker
[/B]

What if the ball comes forward but off the side of the hand? IS THAT A BAD PASS OR A FUMBLE?

[/B][/QUOTE]Rule 4-21 says "a fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player's grasp". There is no reference to a "flub" in the rules. Wheher a fumble actually occurred or not, as above, is strictly up to the judgement of the calling official. None of us can tell you whether something is actually a fumble or not.That's your call.

If you don't believe in fumbles, then don't call them.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

"Because I am not well coached and fail to keep two hands on the ball as I bring it up, the ball SLIPS out of my hands, backwards."

No difference.

Same thing.

No violation to retrieve it.

I don't often disagree with you, but I do on this. I certainly agree with Jurassic that it comes down to judgment. There is now some conventional judgment bruting about. But, in my view, it goes against the spirit and intent to reward a bad, one might even say #$@%%^ play, with an exemption.

Tell me, historically, or rules-committee-wise, why is this exemption there anyway, rewarding bad plays? We don't say that, if you accidentally throw a pass off line and it goes in the backcourt, you have a get-out-of-backcourt-free card.

[Adam]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker

What if the ball comes forward but off the side of the hand? IS THAT A BAD PASS OR A FUMBLE?

It looks like a bad pass to me. The judgment comes when the player attempts to stop the pass and fails.
You seem to want some sort of cut-and-dried rule for every possible situation. It's just not going to happen.