you make the call video

[Kostja]

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

Huh?
Since when is a defender allowed to move sideways?

I don't know for sure what you do in the States, or Canada for that matter, but under FIBA rules he is allowed to move sideways to maintain a legal guarding position.

And I tried to find something in my old NCAA rule book ... there it says:

1. Every player shall be entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent.
2. The guard may shift to maintain guarding position in the path of the dribbler provided the guard does not charge into the dribbler.
   
   Did that change???

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

Whenever you have block/charge, ask yourself "what did the defender do wrong?" - after all, you are supposed to be reffing the defense. If your answer is "nothing", call charge.

I do totally agree.

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

If your answer contains the words "moves sideways", it's a block.

Where did you find that information?

Cheers,
Kostja

[canuckrefguy]

Originally Posted by Kostja

The guard may shift to maintain guarding position in the path of the dribbler provided the guard does not charge into the dribbler.

Did that change???

Apples and oranges. Not the same situation as the one in the video. In the video, the defender moved sideways into a shooter that had begun his shooting motion before the defender arrived at his spot. That's a block no matter what rules you're playing under.

Originally Posted by Kostja

Where did you find that information?

Cheers,
Kostja

Get bent.

Cheers,
CRG

[Snake~eyes]

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

Huh?

Since when is a defender allowed to move sideways?

Whenever you have block/charge, ask yourself "what did the defender do wrong?" - after all, you are supposed to be reffing the defense. If your answer is "nothing", call charge. If your answer contains the words "moves sideways", it's a block.

Having said all this, I think this is one of those calls where you could probably call charge and never get any heat for it. It'd be the wrong call, but you could get away with it.

I disagree, the defender is allowed to move sideways. Otherwise hows he supposed to play defense.

Read Rule 4-23-3c.

I've got a charge.

[canuckrefguy]

Originally Posted by Snake~eyes

I disagree, the defender is allowed to move sideways. Otherwise hows he supposed to play defense.

Read Rule 4-23-3c.

I've got a charge.

Of course he's allowed to move sideways.

But not if it's into a guy who's already begun his shooting motion.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Snake~eyes

I disagree, the defender is allowed to move sideways. Otherwise hows he supposed to play defense.

Read Rule 4-23-3c.

I've got a charge.

I disagreed...he was not the primary defender and ,to me, he had not established LGP prior to sliding over.

[Jay R]

Guys, I believe all the rule codes agree here. A defender may move sideways to keep a legal guarding position. However, if the shooter is airborne (as in the video) he is not allowed to move siideways once the ball carrier leaves the floor. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I disagreed...he was not the primary defender and ,to me, he had not established LGP prior to sliding over.

What has "primary defender" got to do with anything under NCAA Mens rules?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What has "primary defender" got to do with anything under NCAA Mens rules?

It's a term some of my NCAA-level buddies use when discussing PC/Block plays. Did the secondary (or help defender or whatever term anyone wants to use) defender establish LGP prior to collision/contact? Usually plays involving penetration to the basket where primary defender gets beat and secondary defender in paint slides over to help. They discuss 'L' picking up secondary defender and having a whistle on those types of crashes. IMO this block/charge video clip is a perfect example. The 'C' has eyes on the ball-handler and the defender trailing him. 'L' was in position to referee the defense, in this case the secondary defender.

[Snake~eyes]

I'm not 100% familiar with NCAA rules on this matter but in NFHS this guy has a LGP as far as I'm concerned.

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

Of course he's allowed to move sideways.

But not if it's into a guy who's already begun his shooting motion.

Shooting motion is irrelevant last time I checked.



In my judgement he was in his spot before the shooter left the floor.

[canuckrefguy]

Originally Posted by Snake~eyes

I'm not 100% familiar with NCAA rules on this matter but in NFHS this guy has a LGP as far as I'm concerned.


Shooting motion is irrelevant last time I checked.



In my judgement he was in his spot before the shooter left the floor.

That's where you and I will disagree....he was not there in time.

My bad - "leaving the floor" is what I was referring to.

[NICK]

Definitely a block, he tried to take the offensive charge with his raised left shoulder, cheers

[Kostja]

Forgive me, I can't stop Hopefully everybody learns something ...

Originally Posted by Jay R

Guys, I believe all the rule codes agree here. A defender may move sideways to keep a legal guarding position.

Here they do.

Originally Posted by Jay R

However, if the shooter is airborne (as in the video) he is not allowed to move siideways once the ball carrier leaves the floor. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Does airborne mean the shooter left the floor (that's how I would understand it), or does it mean, he began his shooting motion and is in the act of shooting but still on the ground?

FIBA rules allow any defender to move (laterally, backwards) into the path of the player with the ball, no matter if he is already in a shooting motion or still a dribbler. The crucial moment where all this changes is only when the player with the ball takes off (both feet leave the ground). From that point on, it is not allowed for a defender to move into his path since he can't change direction anymore.

From the FIBA rulebook:
When judging a block/charge situation involving a player with the ball, an official shall use the following principles:

• The defensive player must establish an initial legal guarding position by facing the player with the ball and having both feet on the floor.
• The defensive player may remain stationary, jump vertically, move laterally or move backwards in order to maintain the initial legal guarding position. Yes
• When moving to maintain the initial legal guarding position, one or both feet may be off the floor for an instant, as long as the movement is lateral or backwards, but not towards the player with the ball.
• Contact must occur on the torso, in which case the defensive player would be considered as having been at the place of contact first.
• Having established a legal guarding position the defensive player may turn within his cylinder to cushion any blow or to avoid injury.

A player who is in the air

An opponent may not move into the path of a player after that player has jumped into the air.

The rule about a player in the air does not apply here, because the defender doesn't move after the offensive player has jumped! Now, that is my judgement with the aid of multiple replays in slow motion ... My judgement can still be wrong, but I am a hundred percent sure regarding the rules (FIBA).

I still got a charge, but the more I look at it the more respect do I have for the ref who made this call and sold as if he was absolutely sure about it (even though he probably wasn't).

Oh ... I promise I will shut up now and accept whatever you "block"-guys out there say

[canuckrefguy]

Originally Posted by Kostja

Forgive me, I can't stop Hopefully everybody learns something ...



Here they do.



Does airborne mean the shooter left the floor (that's how I would understand it), or does it mean, he began his shooting motion and is in the act of shooting but still on the ground?

FIBA rules allow any defender to move (laterally, backwards) into the path of the player with the ball, no matter if he is already in a shooting motion or still a dribbler. The crucial moment where all this changes is only when the player with the ball takes off (both feet leave the ground). From that point on, it is not allowed for a defender to move into his path since he can't change direction anymore.



The rule about the a player in the air does not apply here, because the defender doesn't move after the offensive player has jumped! Now, that is my judgement with the aid of multiple replays in slow motion ... My judgement can still be wrong, but I am a hundred percent sure regarding the rules (FIBA).

I still got a charge, but the more I look at it the more respect do I have for the ref who made this call and sold as if he was absolutely sure about it (even though he probably wasn't).

Oh ... I promise I will shut up now and accept whatever you "block"-guys out there say

By George, I have learned something.

I've learned that you don't referee the defense.

[crazy voyager]

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

Huh?

Since when is a defender allowed to move sideways?

Whenever you have block/charge, ask yourself "what did the defender do wrong?" - after all, you are supposed to be reffing the defense. If your answer is "nothing", call charge. If your answer contains the words "moves sideways", it's a block.

Having said all this, I think this is one of those calls where you could probably call charge and never get any heat for it. It'd be the wrong call, but you could get away with it.

Remember I go by fiba rules

33.4
The defensive player may remain stationary, jump vertycally, move laterally or move backwards in order to maintain intial legal gaurding position.

You can go back, you can go sideways, and you still have your gaurding position. The defender was in his cylinder, face to his opponent. Moved sideways (allowed) and the offensive player jumped into him. Imo that's a charge

[NICK]

The contact was on the shoulder not the torso of the defender, therefore to me LGP was not established. I do not see any differences between Fiba rule fouls, Nba fouls, nor Ncaa fouls. You'll either get it right or get it wrong.