OBR - You Make the Call

JJ · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Aug 01, 2001, 11:11pm

OBR. R3 tries to score on a base hit, but the throw to home beats him easily. The catcher tries to tag him but R3 jumps over his outstretched hands - and also jumps completely over home plate, missing it. The umpire makes no call. The runner has run several strides toward his (1st base) dugout, and hears teammates yelling, "You missed the plate!" He starts to return, and the catcher takes a step toward him to apply a tag. R3, realizing that if he is quickly tagged the other runners will not be able to advance further, so he stops and takes a step back.

The question is, do you call R3 out for taking this "retreating" step? He has not reached the dugout. He has not gone more that 3 feet out of a direct line from where he is to home plate. He has simply taken a step backward to prolong being tagged. If you call him out, what's the reason - abandoning his efforts to run the bases? You wouldn't call a runner in a rundown out for retreating. What's the call?

Jerry · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 02, 2001, 06:05am

Under 7.08(k), since the runner is not immediately returning to touch home plate, the catcher may simply hold the ball and touch the plate for an appealed out. If the catcher doesn't do that, you have no basis otherwise to call the runner out. Play on.

Gee · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 02, 2001, 11:27am

Right, but that could be an interesting sitch. the runner, after missing home plate, takes about four steps to the dugout. The catcher follows him but can't tag him. Now the catcher heads back to the plate for an appeal with the culprit close behind and following him.

The EX-runner is showing an effort to return to the plate and is in close proximity to the plate (unrelaxed action). An appeal wouldn't be allowed, only a tag.

Hey, this cat and mouse game could go on all night. Hope it never happens to me. Interesting though. G.

Jerry · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 02, 2001, 11:36am

It won't go on too long . . . Remember that following runner? He'd be called out under 7.08(h) . . . "He passes a preceding runner before such runner is out."

Now, if HE misses home plate too!!! Then it could go on all night.

#5 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 02, 2001, 03:13pm

If you're saying that when the trail runner scores he would be out for passing a runner that would incorrect. It only kills the first runner's ability to retag. Once the second runner scores then you just appeal the first because it is now relaxed play on him because he can't retouch.

Bfair · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 02, 2001, 03:58pm

What I really thought was interesting was that in the first four responses no one gave an anwer on what they'd do.

I'd call him out for leaving the basepath. His basepath is to home and home only. The purpose of the basepath rule is so a fielder doesn't have to chase a runner to apply a tag. The catcher went to apply the tag. The man reversed and went the opposite direction of where he had to be. The catcher shouldn't have to chase him any longer to do his job.
To me, that's leaving his basepath when a play is being made upon him. He's out.

Just my opinion,

Freix

Gee · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 02, 2001, 06:45pm

Hey, there is no basepath and there is no runner. G,

Rich Ives · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 02, 2001, 08:31pm

Freix: There is a PBUC ruling that says a runner may return from the bench to touch a missed home plate. The LL rule says he can't return if he enters the dugout. In either case you can't call him out before he enters the dugout, and only in LL can you call him out when he does.

7.12 says a following runner isn't affected by a preceeeding runners failure to touch so you can't get him for passing.

JJ · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 02, 2001, 10:13pm

So the answer is....? He's out if he's tagged - duh. He's out if the catcher touches the plate and appeals the missed base IF the runner is not trying to return. As to there "not being a basepath..", IMHO there IS a basepath - it's the direct line from where he is to where he's going (much like a batter heading for the dugout on a dropped third strike, only to realize it WAS a dropped third strike, so he takes off for first from wherever he is, thus creating his basepath - so a basepath doesn't have to be between two bases....or does it?). The fact that the runner retreated a step means he's no longer trying to return to the missed base (or does it?), so that gives the catcher the appeal option he wouldn't have if the runner WAS trying to return. I feel like a dog chasing my tail...
BUT - can the runner try to return to the missed base, retreat a step to avoid a tag (staying in that direct line betweeen where he is and where he's going), then try again to return to the missed base if the catcher stops trying to tag him (for instance, if the catcher looks at the other runners to check their positions) before the catcher steps on the plate with the appeal? Curiouser and curiouser...

BTW, I called the runner out because the catcher finally did tag him , not because he retreated to avoid that tag.
Isn't baseball a great game?

Bfair · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 02, 2001, 11:22pm

JJ, I thought I made that pretty clear when I said his basepath was to home and home only. Advancing to the dugout after a tag attempt is being made on him ain't gonna cut it in my book, especially after he started back to touch the plate.

He was in his basepath headed back to home. I don't allow a reverse in that basepath and I sure ain't gonna make F2 keep chasing him. I haven't looked it up for a ruling. If I am wrong, then I am wrong, but that's what I call in the situation. It abides with the intent of the basepath rule so as not to make a fielder making a tag attempt have to chase the runner.

He's out for being out of HIS basepath which is headed BACK to home plate.

Just my opinion,

Freix

Jerry · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 03, 2001, 07:30am

I think we're all right . . . and we're all wrong. Missing the plate, trying to return after entering the dugout, the catcher should/shouldn't step on the plate, the runner starts to go back to home and then retreats toward the dugout again, runners all going berserk and missing bases all over the place, etc., etc., etc. For God's sake, call something! If all playing action has stopped (e.g. runners hold between bases, that runner from the dugout stops in his tracks and the catcher being confused on what the hell he should do . . . call "time", call that runner who missed the plate out for "leaving the basepath" or "abandoning his effort to return" or for "being overage"; it doesn't matter! Get on with the game! Calmly . . . once you've got all the irate coaches, parents and players running at you with baseball bats back to where they belong . . . allow all the protests you want. Go on with the game and let the "experts" on the protest committee handle it!

BJ Moose · #12 (**permalink**) Sat Aug 04, 2001, 05:31pm

I couldn't go any farther than this... How can the runner at 3rd not get home on a BASE HIT?? Wooooo wooo, Look the MARTIAN MOTHER SHIP!

Quote:

Originally posted by JJ
OBR. R3 tries to score on a base hit, but the throw to home beats him easily

Gre144 · #13 (**permalink**) Sat Aug 04, 2001, 11:07pm

How would you rule in Fed?

bob jenkins · #14 (**permalink**) Sun Aug 05, 2001, 07:40am

Quote:

Originally posted by Gre144
How would you rule in Fed?

Same way.

Gre144 · #15 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 06, 2001, 11:05am

Quote:

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Quote:

Originally posted by Gre144
How would you rule in Fed?

Same way.

So are you saying if R3 misses home plate he is automatically out if the catcher with the ball touches home plate(an appeal play) even if a force doesn't exist? Where is Fed does it say that you can make a live ball appeal?

Greg