2 seconds left 2 point lead!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker


2. The 'entry pass contact' issue was recently discussed at length in another thread on this forum. Apparently, under NCAA rules, there cannot be a common foul with 3 tenths of a second or less, but under FED rules - it could be a common foul, and, were the foulee's team in the bonus, s/he would shoot.

Care to expand on this?

[Rick82358]

Apparently, under NCAA rules, there cannot be a common foul with 3 tenths of a second or less, ...

I would like to see this one in writing; can you quote that rule or ART or guidline to us Please?

Are you sure that you are not talking about a shooting foul in this situation?

That would make sence since you can not have a try with .2 seconds or less on the clock there for any foul committed would be a common foul that would put the shooter at the line for the bonus if in effect but there would be not shots if not in the bonus.

[bob jenkins]

Here's the NCAA A/R. It's not quite what was claimed:

A.R. 45. With two 10ths of a second remaining in a period on the game clock, Team A is
awarded a throw-in at the division line. A1 passes the ball to A2 who (a) catches the ball
with both hands while in the air and throws the ball into his or her basket or (b) does not
catch the ball but taps it into the basket. In both (a) and (b), the ball is in the air on the
way to the basket when the game-ending horn sounds. RULING: In (a), when the game
clock displays three 10ths of a second or less and play is to be resumed by a throw-in or
a free throw, a player may not gain possession of the ball and try for goal. When this situation
occurs, the official shall blow his/her whistle and the period is over, unless a flagrant
personal foul or intentional personal foul was committed on the play. Whether the
try for goal was successfully attempted before the expiration of time is inconsequential.
In (b), when the player does not possess (catch) the ball but taps it into the basket before
the period-ending horn sounds, the official shall use replay equipment, videotape or television
monitoring, when available and located at courtside, to ascertain whether the tap
(try) that will determine the outcome of the game was released before the sounding of
the period-ending horn. When, in using the monitor, the official determines that the successful
try was a catch (the player possessed the ball), the official shall cancel the goal
since it was erroneously counted and can be corrected per Rule 2-11.1.c.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
Here's the NCAA A/R. It's not quite what was claimed:

A.R. 45. With two 10ths of a second remaining in a period on the game clock, Team A is
awarded a throw-in at the division line. A1 passes the ball to A2 who (a) catches the ball
with both hands while in the air and throws the ball into his or her basket or (b) does not
catch the ball but taps it into the basket. In both (a) and (b), the ball is in the air on the
way to the basket when the game-ending horn sounds. RULING: In (a), when the game
clock displays three 10ths of a second or less and play is to be resumed by a throw-in or
a free throw, a player may not gain possession of the ball and try for goal. When this situation
occurs, the official shall blow his/her whistle and the period is over, unless a flagrant
personal foul or intentional personal foul was committed on the play. Whether the
try for goal was successfully attempted before the expiration of time is inconsequential.
In (b), when the player does not possess (catch) the ball but taps it into the basket before
the period-ending horn sounds, the official shall use replay equipment, videotape or television
monitoring, when available and located at courtside, to ascertain whether the tap
(try) that will determine the outcome of the game was released before the sounding of
the period-ending horn. When, in using the monitor, the official determines that the successful
try was a catch (the player possessed the ball), the official shall cancel the goal
since it was erroneously counted and can be corrected per Rule 2-11.1.c.

So.....if you're fouled during a "tap" with 0.3 seconds or less on the clock, is it no foul too? Or a 2-shot foul in the act of shooting? That A.R. isn't clear on that.

[Rick82358]

That AR doesn't cover it directly.
but it does say that you can not have a try with .3 seconds on the clock or less - which means you could not have a shooting foul.
only a bonus situation 1 +1 or 2 shots after 9.
I think that is where the misunderstanding occurs.
By rule at this point on the clock you can only have a common foul, since there can not be a try for goal!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Rick82358
That AR doesn't cover it directly.
but it does say that you can not have a try with .3 seconds on the clock or less - which means you could not have a shooting foul.

That's completely irrelevant to my question. The A.R. doesn't cover a "tap" situation at all as far as I can see. That A.R. says that you can't have "possession and a try". Iow, if you grab the ball, then you can't have a try. And if there's no "try", then you can't have a foul during that try. That's logical, I guess. However, that's a completely different situation than "tapping" a ball. If you tap the ball with less than 0.3 seconds on the clock and it's in the air before the red light goes on, then that is a "try" also and that tap(try) would count in that case. There's different types of tries....and a "tap" type try is different from a try with possession.

And....if a player is fouled in the act of tapping, and that tap subsequently goes in and is counted, I can't see how the rules could also say that you can't have a foul in the act of tapping if there's 0.3 seconds or less on the clock.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

That's completely irrelevant to my question. The A.R. doesn't cover a "tap" situation at all as far as I can see. That A.R. says that you can't have "possession and a try". Iow, if you grab the ball, then you can't have a try. And if there's no "try", then you can't have a foul during that try. That's logical, I guess. However, that's a completely different situation than "tapping" a ball. If you tap the ball with less than 0.3 seconds on the clock and it's in the air before the red light goes on, then that is a "try" also and that tap(try) would count in that case. There's different types of tries....and a "tap" type try is different from a try with possession.

And....if a player is fouled in the act of tapping, and that tap subsequently goes in and is counted, I can't see how the rules could also say that you can't have a foul in the act of tapping if there's 0.3 seconds or less on the clock.

The rule does not say that, it only says you can't catch and shoot at .3 seconds or less.

A tap can occur at this point. A tap is a try. A foul on the tap is the same as a foul on a try. So with .3 seconds or less you can have a shooting foul on a tap, but not on a catch & shoot.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

The rule does not say that, it only says you can't catch and shoot at .3 seconds or less.

A tap can occur at this point. A tap is a try. A foul on the tap is the same as a foul on a try. So with .3 seconds or less you can have a shooting foul on a tap, but not on a catch & shoot.

Thank you for the clarification. That was my take too.

So.....to sum up, on that particular throw-in being discussed, with 0.3 seconds or less on the clock, you could have (1)a common foul if it occurred during the throw-in but before the tap (2) A shooting foul if the foul occurred on the tap and before the light came on, or (3) an intentional or flagrant personal foul could also be committed on the tapper if either happened before the light came on. And NFHS rules would be the same for these situations.

Correctamundo?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Thank you for the clarification. That was my take too.

So.....to sum up, on that particular throw-in being discussed, with 0.3 seconds or less on the clock, you could have (1)a common foul if it occurred during the throw-in but before the tap (2) A shooting foul if the foul occurred on the tap and before the light came on, or (3) an intentional or flagrant personal foul could also be committed on the tapper if either happened before the light came on. And NFHS rules would be the same for these situations.

Correctamundo?

I think we agree, but what do I know?

I aint one of them daytime TV judges.

I don't even like jello pudding.

[ronny mulkey]

Originally posted by Rick82358
this play was observed in the ORCC tournament

Play, Team A scores a basket to close the gap to, Team B (80) and Team A (78) with 2.1 seconds left on the game clock.

Team B, B -1 runs the endline after the scored basket while there is pressure from Team A, B - 1 throws an entry pass to his team mate B - 2 who goes air borne, catches the ball gains control and immediately goes to the floor.

Lead official blow whistle and calls a travel!

The game clock shows 0.1 of a second left!

Team is granted the ball via the violation, A - 1 designated spot throws the ball into the playing court to A -2 who is cutting down the lane opposite side, as the ball reaches the air borne A -2 his is bumped just as the buzzer sounds.

How would you rule on the play as an official on the court, please do not give me a rule book answers.

You do not have the aide of a monitor!

Did it take a full (2) second for the play to complete?

Would you put time on the clock or would you leave it as it is?

If you put time back on the clock, how much?

If you did not, then how would you rule on the entry pass and contact against A -2?

What if anything was missed?

Slick,

NFHS - I guess most people think there is an obvious timing mistake on this play but i don't think that is necessarily so. The amount of time involved is not just the catch and fall to the floor. There is recognition time for the ref and lag time for the clock operator. A good clock operator would start the clock on the airborn catch and would wait on an official's signal on the fall to the floor. I would imagine that it takes the calling official a little time to "recognize" a travel after the kid hits the floor and put air in the whistle. Unless one of the three officials had a count going after this WHISTLE (for the travel) or noticed the time after this WHISTLE, then I would not touch the clock.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
[/B]

1) I think we agree, but what do I know?

2) I aint one of them daytime TV judges.

3) I don't even like jello pudding.
[/B][/QUOTE]1) Very little.

2) Me neither.

3) Me nor.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

1) I think we agree, but what do I know?

[/B]

1) Very little.

[/B][/QUOTE]

That's why I agree with you.

[Forksref]

Without seeing it, how would I know how much time it took?

Without seeing it, how would I know if traveling is the wrong call?

Seems like you are fishing for an answer that an objective person can't give based on lack of information.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
Here's the NCAA A/R. It's not quite what was claimed:

A.R. 45. With two 10ths of a second remaining in a period on the game clock, Team A is
awarded a throw-in at the division line. A1 passes the ball to A2 who (a) catches the ball
with both hands while in the air and throws the ball into his or her basket or (b) does not
catch the ball but taps it into the basket. In both (a) and (b), the ball is in the air on the
way to the basket when the game-ending horn sounds. RULING: In (a), when the game
clock displays three 10ths of a second or less and play is to be resumed by a throw-in or
a free throw, a player may not gain possession of the ball and try for goal. When this situation
occurs, the official shall blow his/her whistle and the period is over, unless a flagrant
personal foul or intentional personal foul was committed on the play. Whether the
try for goal was successfully attempted before the expiration of time is inconsequential.
In (b), when the player does not possess (catch) the ball but taps it into the basket before
the period-ending horn sounds, the official shall use replay equipment, videotape or television
monitoring, when available and located at courtside, to ascertain whether the tap
(try) that will determine the outcome of the game was released before the sounding of
the period-ending horn. When, in using the monitor, the official determines that the successful
try was a catch (the player possessed the ball), the official shall cancel the goal
since it was erroneously counted and can be corrected per Rule 2-11.1.c.

Leaving aside for the moment that matter of a tap, and looking at the NCAA ruling . . .

With three tenths or less on the clock, A2 catches A1's inbounds pass and is fouled (a) while attempting a shot, and (b) while not attempting a shot.

For (a), A.R.45 says, "a player may not gain possession of the ball and try for goal . . . the official shall blow his/her whistle and the period is over, unless a flagrant personal foul or intentional personal foul was committed on the play." Thus, in NCAA rules, no foul.

But, if, as in (b), no shot is attempted, it seems to me the AR doesn't address the issue, and a non-shooting common foul could be assessed.

Thus we have the faintly paradoxical result that, if A2 tries to score via shooting, s/he can't, but, if s/he doesn't try to score, s/he could go to the line.

I believe there is no corresponding FED Casebook ruling, so A2 could be fouled in both aboves delineated cases. In case (a), an official would be contending that A2 couldn't have been shooting, no matter what the player thought.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker

Thus we have the faintly paradoxical result that, if A2 tries to score via shooting, s/he can't, but, if s/he doesn't try to score, s/he could go to the line.

Where does it say that?

Try reading a few of the posts above again. That A.R. says that you can't call an act-of-shooting foul on a try that includes possession or player control. It doesn't say that that you can't call an act-of-shooting foul on a tap. You can call a 2-shot foul on a tap. Both are methods of "trying to score via shooting". That's what we've been discussing.