A Correctable Error fine point

[Lotto]

Going back to my example for a moment, if you consider a change of possession to occur when team A loses possession rather than when team B gains possession, the idea that an OOB violation by A constitutes a change in possession for the purposes of a correctable error makes sense.

[JugglingReferee]

Yes.

The event I originally asked for is A causing a violation or foul, or B securing team control, or a B arrow and a held ball is called.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by Lotto
Going back to my example for a moment, if you consider a change of possession to occur when team A loses possession rather than when team B gains possession, the idea that an OOB violation by A constitutes a change in possession for the purposes of a correctable error makes sense.

Well, 4-36-2(b), of the 4-36 Point of Interruption 4-36's, says play shall be resumed by " ... a free throw or throw-in when the stoppage occurred during this activity or if a team is entitled to such."

'Entitled to such' happens when the ball goes out of bounds, no? I find it handy to think of this as the 'pending or underway' clause.

[assignmentmaker]

Is a missed shot recovered by the shooting team the same thing as a change of possession for the purpose of 2-10-6?

2-10-6 references 'team possession', but that's not a defined term in FED rules as best I can tell. It appears neither in Rule 4 as having a definition of its own, nor in 4-2 (Alternating Possession and Arrow), nor in 6-4 (Alternating Possession).

If one thinks that the rules makers meant 'team possession' in 2-10-6 as synonymous with 'team control' . . . but that seems unlikely, since they carefully eschew the term elswhere.

On the basis that 2-6-10 doesn't say 'team control'. I would treat Team A shooting and rebounding the shot as one, continuous possession for the purpose of applying the rule.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker
(snip) On the basis that 2-6-10 doesn't say 'team control'. I would treat Team A shooting and rebounding the shot as one, continuous possession for the purpose of applying the rule.

Agreed.

[Edited by JugglingReferee on Feb 7th, 2006 at 02:01 AM]

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by rainmaker

So you'd say it isn't when they receive the ball for the throw-in, but when the violation is committed?

Yes...B has earned the ball by forcing A to commit a violation. We'll correct the merited FTs but B still earned the ball. To put them on the lane makes them have to earn it again.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker
Is a missed shot recovered by the shooting team the same thing as a change of possession for the purpose of 2-10-6?

...On the basis that 2-6-10 doesn't say 'team control'. I would treat Team A shooting and rebounding the shot as one, continuous possession for the purpose of applying the rule.

As would I. If we didn't consider the possible results...

A2 fouled...Error made (merited FTs not awarded)

A gets ball for throwin

A throws it in

A1 shoots...misses...shoots...misses

B deflects rebound OOB (never had control)

Error discovered

If you consider the rebound a possession change, you would give A2 the merited FT and give A the ball back no matter what. Of course, that is not how it is...FTs are shot with players on lane and play from there.

Only when B earns the ball through a foul, violation, or made basket by A, or by gaining team control do they gain possession.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

As would I. If we didn't consider the possible results...

A2 fouled...Error made (merited FTs not awarded)

A gets ball for throwin

A throws it in

A1 shoots...misses...shoots...misses

B deflects rebound OOB (never had control)

Error discovered

If you consider the rebound a possession change, you would give A2 the merited FT and give A the ball back no matter what. Of course, that is not how it is...FTs are shot with players on lane and play from there.

Only when B earns the ball through a foul, violation, or made basket by A, or by gaining team control do they gain possession.

Do you mean that the circumstances you list are in addition to the simple case of Team A shoots and rebounds its own miss?

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Lotto
An interesting question just occurred to me. Suppose we have the same basic situation, where B1 fouls A1 with A in the bonus, but A is awarded the ball out of bounds. A2 takes a shot and misses and A3 gets the rebound. At this point the error is discovered.

Has there been a change in possession? On the one hand, B never gained possession, so it's tempting to say no. On the other hand, A gave up possession when A2 takes his/her shot, so it's tempting to say yes.

Since "possession" is not defined in Rule 4, it's hard to say which wins.

Originally posted by assignmentmaker
Is it Nevada-worthy?

I'll consider that a compliment of my overanalysis. Naturally, I have considered this point in the past, about three years ago in fact.

I concluded the same as Bob J. Intervening dead ball periods and other spans of time in which neither team is in control, do not constitute a change of team possession for correctable error purposes. (So Bob's definition of change of team possession is simple and good.)

I decided this because of the ruling in case book play 2.10.1 Situation A part (a).

[Also, I'll note that by specific wording of the latter part of 2-10-6, the awarding of merited a FT(s) without-a-change case is actually NOT a POI situation. So the new POI rule doesn't come into play and hence doesn't require a change in my past reasoning.

2-10-6 . . . If an error is corrected, play shall be resumed from the point of interruption to rectify the error, unless it involves awarding a merited free throw(s) and there has been no change of team possession since the error was made, in which case play shall resume as after any free-throw attempt(s).]

From part (a) of the following case book play we can conclude that the dead ball period during which the error is recognized doesn't count as the team losing possession even though neither team is in control during a dead ball by 4-12-6. Otherwise the ruling from the NFHS would be to resume with an AP throw-in for Team A.
From this I inferred that the NFHS did not intend periods of time during which neither team was in control to count as a "change". So although, the try for goal, miss, same team secures the rebound scenario is slightly different from the case play below because the period of no control is during a live ball, and really should have its own case book play, it has most of the same critical elements present and should, in my opinion, be ajudicated in the same manner. Therefore, I consider shoot, miss, same team rebounds, as not constituting a change of team possesssion FOR THE PURPOSE OF A CORRECTABLE ERROR.


2.10.1 SITUATION A: A1 is fouled but erroneously is not awarded two free throws even though the automatic bonus is in effect. Team A is given a throw-in, and A1 inbounds the ball to A2 who is tied up by B1 resulting in a held-ball situation. The error is discovered following the held-ball call. The possession arrow is pointing to: (a) A's; or (b) B's basket. RULING: In (a), the merited free throws will be awarded, and play will continue from that action, since Team A had not lost possession between the error and when the error was recognized. However, in (b), the lane is cleared for A1's merited free throws, and play resumes from the point of interruption which is an alternating-possession throw-in by Team B.