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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 19, 2006, 11:08pm
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Exclamation

Had this earlier in the year in HS ball:

A1, playing full court pressure on B1, is called for foul by my partner. A1 reacts negatively to the call and I stick him. We continue the game with no further incidents......
.... 6 weeks later, I see team A in another venue. During a loose ball in front of A's bench, A2 tackles B2, I come out with a foul on A2 and A's coach doesn't like it. He states that B2 came in flagrantly on A2 (which myself nor my partners saw...of course) and makes the statement, 'you T'd my kid up for less than that earlier in the season'.

How do you handle the coach's statement?


thanks
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 19, 2006, 11:30pm
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Ignore it and move on, if he wants to continue the conversation tell him that's enough and then whack him.
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2006, 11:47pm
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Ignore it. If he keeps up, give him a chance to prop his way out of the hole he's digging, or if the hole gets bigger: WHACK.
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 20, 2006, 02:15am
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I see that the answer to these types of questions (ie: coach possibly bringing up a valid point) is to just assess a technical or ignore.

I suggest that the other thing that might come of this (though I don't necessarily think this applies in this case) is that ref might consider whether, in fact, the coach does have a point.

Coaches just want to know that from game to game, things will be called consistently. (This is helpful to them in teaching their kids the rules of the game, the nuances, etc.)

It's ridiculous for coaches to hold grudges against certain officials, but they do. But that doesn't mean that they might not occassionally make a good point.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 20, 2006, 03:05am
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Quote:
Originally posted by hooper
coach possibly bringing up a valid point
Coach bringing up a valid point? Gee like that will ever happen.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 20, 2006, 08:04am
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Coaches comments are rarely valid, always biased, 90% irrelivant.
However unless persistant after a stop sign, personal or vulgar - stick with the irrelivant part and ignor it.
If the coach wants to ask you about it - give him a brief explaination and walk away, but persistance will be rewarded - WHACK!

Make your call and rotate out that give him no on to vent at - simple solution.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 20, 2006, 02:32pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by hooper
I see that the answer to these types of questions (ie: coach possibly bringing up a valid point) is to just assess a technical or ignore.

I suggest that the other thing that might come of this (though I don't necessarily think this applies in this case) is that ref might consider whether, in fact, the coach does have a point.

Coaches just want to know that from game to game, things will be called consistently. (This is helpful to them in teaching their kids the rules of the game, the nuances, etc.)

It's ridiculous for coaches to hold grudges against certain officials, but they do. But that doesn't mean that they might not occassionally make a good point.
Even if the coach is 100% correct in his assessment of the situation that B was being unsportsmanlike and should be T'd (which I'm not agreeing to), he is not "making a valid point" by telling it to the ref. It is the ref's job to be consistent, and the coach's job to coach the kids. Calling fouls is not done by consensus. Calling fouls is done by the refs staying in position to see the action and calling what they see.

However, generally in these situations, the coach is not correct. He sees the play very one-sidedly, and isn't usually a good objective evaluator of what happened just now. That's what the refs are paid for.

Also, hooper, if I remember correctly, you coach at the jr hi level. At high school level, coaches are allowed more latitude in some things, but less latitude in others. This comment is not appropriate, nor helpful. And the refs are usually a lot more likely to be right.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 20, 2006, 03:33pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by hooper
I see that the answer to these types of questions (ie: coach possibly bringing up a valid point) is to just assess a technical or ignore.

I suggest that the other thing that might come of this (though I don't necessarily think this applies in this case) is that ref might consider whether, in fact, the coach does have a point.

Coaches just want to know that from game to game, things will be called consistently. (This is helpful to them in teaching their kids the rules of the game, the nuances, etc.)

It's ridiculous for coaches to hold grudges against certain officials, but they do. But that doesn't mean that they might not occassionally make a good point.
Even if the coach is 100% correct in his assessment of the situation that B was being unsportsmanlike and should be T'd (which I'm not agreeing to), he is not "making a valid point" by telling it to the ref. It is the ref's job to be consistent, and the coach's job to coach the kids. Calling fouls is not done by consensus. Calling fouls is done by the refs staying in position to see the action and calling what they see.

However, generally in these situations, the coach is not correct. He sees the play very one-sidedly, and isn't usually a good objective evaluator of what happened just now. That's what the refs are paid for.

Also, hooper, if I remember correctly, you coach at the jr hi level. At high school level, coaches are allowed more latitude in some things, but less latitude in others. This comment is not appropriate, nor helpful. And the refs are usually a lot more likely to be right.
My point is that - even though a ref will T or ignore in this situation - that shouldn't prevent him/her from thinking about the comment after the game. Self-reflection is important to becoming a better official (or coach or whatever).

I know that the general rule with officials is to automatically assume that the coach is a biased, boisterous ignoramous. But, on occassion, he or she may be right. I'm just saying that there are times that an official might consider a point made by a coach. Just like a coach should not automatically argue with every call against his or her team, an offical might consider that coach could have a point once in awhile.

Not sure how that thought is inappropriate or unhelpful.
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Old Fri Jan 20, 2006, 04:24pm
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Hooper - the "inappropriate and unhelpful" comment Rainmaker was referring to would be the comment from the coach in the original post - not the comments that you made.

And I'm really not sure why the origianl comment is all that "classless"...not a big deal to me - just ore it and move on. We say the same types of things about coaches in our pre-games/post-game conversations...really not a big deal.
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Old Fri Jan 20, 2006, 04:39pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockyroad
Hooper - the "inappropriate and unhelpful" comment Rainmaker was referring to would be the comment from the coach in the original post - not the comments that you made.

And I'm really not sure why the origianl comment is all that "classless"...not a big deal to me - just ore it and move on. We say the same types of things about coaches in our pre-games/post-game conversations...really not a big deal.
IMO it falls into the 'classless' b/c this coach is notorious for shirking the responsibility of holding his kids accountable for their actions on the court. He does argue 99% of the calls in his game that do not go his way. I don't think he had a valid point in his comments. Some coaches are of the opinion that we as officials actually care who wins our games. Speaking for myself and the guys/gals I work with we do not. All we want is for the integrity of the game to be preserved, for the game to be administered in the proper manner. Once a game is concluded we do review what happened and how to improve upon it, but we do not dwell on it, it is not personal and we move on.
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Old Fri Jan 20, 2006, 05:14pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by lookin2improve

IMO it falls into the 'classless' b/c this coach is notorious for shirking the responsibility of holding his kids accountable for their actions on the court. He does argue 99% of the calls in his game that do not go his way. I don't think he had a valid point in his comments. Some coaches are of the opinion that we as officials actually care who wins our games. Speaking for myself and the guys/gals I work with we do not. All we want is for the integrity of the game to be preserved, for the game to be administered in the proper manner. Once a game is concluded we do review what happened and how to improve upon it, but we do not dwell on it, it is not personal and we move on.
Don't get me wrong - the coach's comment was stupid, but in light of all the other things the guy could have done and said, it just doesn't seem like that big a deal to me...if he's already argued 99% of the calls against his team, he should have been dealt with earlier...but that particular comment really isn't even worth worrying about.
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Old Fri Jan 20, 2006, 05:24pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockyroad
Quote:
Originally posted by lookin2improve

He does argue 99% of the calls in his game that do not go his way.
if he's already argued 99% of the calls against his team, he should have been dealt with earlier...
A- freaking- men!

Letting a coach get away with that is just plain ridiculous. If you let a coach argue almost every call without doing something about it, then you've forefeited your right to complain about it imo.

Nip it, nip it in the bud.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 20, 2006, 09:12pm
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Red face

Quote:
Originally posted by lookin2improve
How do you handle the coach's statement?
You stare at his pants and puke on his shoes. DUH!
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 23, 2006, 12:23pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by hooper
I know that the general rule with officials is to automatically assume that the coach is a biased, boisterous ignoramous. But, on occassion, he or she may be right.
(1) The general rule is NOT to assume that a coach is a biased, boisterous ignoramus. The general rule is to assume that a coach will be an excellent, even if imperfect, educator.

(2) The general rule is that a coach who says "You T'd my kid up for less than that earlier in the season" IS presumed to be a biased, boisterous ignoramus.

(3) All presumptions in the game of basketball are rebuttable. For example, a coach can overcome a presumption (established with a careless comment) with otherwise self-disciplined and balanced behavior.

(4) Even biased, boisterous ignoramuses can be right. Being right from time to time does not make a person an unbiased, calm intellect.

(5) I agree with hooper and others that good officials consider good points regardless of the origin of those good points.
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Old Mon Jan 23, 2006, 03:31pm
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Had a similar situation on Sat. B is losing by 20 or so and it is late in the third quarter. Team A turns it over and B coach wants a foul WHILE HIS PLAYER IS ON A FAST BREAK... I am running down court as the new L and when I get right in front of him he says to me "What the hell was that $hit down there." I stop dead in my tracks turn and whack him. This happens before his player can get to the basket and make the layup. I waved the shot off and the coach says, "You can't take my layup away!" I looked at him and said, "I didn't, you did."

End of conversation until about 2:00 minutes to go in the 4th quarter. We are going back and forth as A has increased their lead to 37 points. Team B coach is still visibly upset but doing so while sitting on the bench. At one point he is up yelling again and I tell him "You are not leaving early so sit down." He sat and we played out the rest of the game. He will probably black ball me but the way I see it is that he will be doing us both a favor!
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