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Sat Jan 14, 2006, 10:18pm
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>>You need to review the rule book. <<
I have. I challenge you to find a specific rule that disputes what I said. >>The airborne shooter is not in the rules for continuous motion nor what constitutes a try, it is only for contact on or by A1 AFTER a try has been released.<< 10.6 (Penalty) 2: "One free throw is fouled IN THE ACT OF SHOOTING and two- or three- point try or tap is successful." 5: "Fouled in the ACT OF SHOOTING and try or tap is unsuccessful:..." There is a rules difference between the "act of shooting" and a try or a tap. You can't just merge them into one act or idea. The rule doesn't say, "fouled on a try or a tap", it says, "fouled in the act of shooting." Thus, "act of shooting", and not try, is the key term. Now, the definition of "Act of shooting" says, in part, that it INCLUDES the airborne shooter. There's nothing in the definition of airborne shooter that says it deals ONLY with contact after a released try, thus you can't assume as much. Besides, even if it were true, the "act of shooting" -- which is the key phrase -- ends when the ball is "clearly in flight". If you were correct, there would be no reason to define specifically when the act of shooting ended, or make it different from when a try ended. Finally, the ball isn't dead until the AS returns to the floor (6-7-exception). Please support your assertions with rules citations like I did if you are going to dispute this. As stated, nothing I said was contridictory. You may think its wrong, but that doesn't make it contridictory -- even if you are correct. 
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Sat Jan 14, 2006, 10:28pm
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ART. 1 . . . An airborne shooter is a player who has released the ball on a try for a goal or has tapped the ball and has not returned to the floor. ART. 2 . . . The airborne shooter is considered to be in the act of shooting. RULE 4 SECTION 11 CONTINUOUS MOTION ART. 1 . . . Continuous motion applies to a try or tap for field goals and free throws, but it has no significance unless there is a foul by any defensive player during the interval which begins when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight. ART. 2 . . . If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight. ART. 3 . . . Continuous motion does not apply if a teammate fouls after a player has started a try for a goal and before the ball is in flight. The ball becomes dead immediately. RULE 4 SECTION 41 SHOOTING, TRY, TAP ART. 1 . . . The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne shooter.For purposes of contact on or by said player. ART. 2 . . . A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team's own basket. A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official's judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player's hand as a foul could prevent release of the ball. ART. 3 . . . The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball. ART. 4 . . . The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead. ART. 5 . . . A tap for goal is the contacting of the ball with any part of a player's hand(s) in an attempt to direct the ball into his/her basket. ART. 6 . . . A tap shall be considered the same as a try for field goal, except as in 5-2-5. ART. 7 . . . The tap starts when the player's hand(s) touches the ball. ART. 8 . . . The tap ends in exactly the same manner as a try. Game, set, and match. [Edited by blindzebra on Jan 14th, 2006 at 10:34 PM]
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Sat Jan 14, 2006, 11:12pm
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Summing up: airborne shooter is in the act of *A* try, not an infinite number of tries. When it's clear his 1 try is not going in the play is dead on the whistle, barring a PC foul that is.
__________________
9-11-01 http://www.fallenheroesfund.org/fallenheroes/index.php http://www.carydufour.com/marinemoms...llowribbon.jpg
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Sun Jan 15, 2006, 12:11am
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Obviously you don't believe the answers you're getting here, or the rules citations accompanying those answers. You might be wise to touch base with your local rules interpreter on this one and get his ruling. Then you can argue with him if he tells you something other than what you believe. Btw, you're still wrong, but it's a waste of time to argue it further. [Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 15th, 2006 at 12:14 AM]
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Sun Jan 15, 2006, 01:12am
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love the thread by the way. I just have never seen a ref wave off a basket because the player got hit on the arm causing the ball to fumble in the player's hand, and while still in the air he finishes the shot. I have still never seen a ref do this and I have been around the game for a long time. I would love to hear a story if somebody has one, because I know most the guys on here have been around a lot longer than I have.
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Sun Jan 15, 2006, 01:45am
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Yes, I've seen it.
Yes, I've waved it off...correctly...the ball went about 2 feet straight up and the kid grabbed it in put it in.
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Sun Jan 15, 2006, 02:06am
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blindzebra can you please point me in the direction of which or as many of those citations that you used that says just because a ball is fumbled in the player's hand that it doesn't constitute him still being an airbone shooter, or in continous motion when he gets fouled.
and by the way you gave the kid two shots when he got fouled, right?
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Sun Jan 15, 2006, 02:27am
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Where do you draw the line? Is a ball moving slightly on a player's hand the same as a ball that goes completely away? If not what is the cut off? An inch? 6 inches? 1 foot? 3 feet? I might also point out that the NBA case play says regains control in the SAME motion, which I read as the ball becomes loose but does not get away from the shooter's hands. For me it would be almost impossible to see a ball become loose but stay in contact with the shooter's hands, but it is pretty obvious if the ball is completely out of the shooter's hand(s) and then repossessed. Yes, I waved it off and gave the kid 2 shots. After the report all I had to say to the coach was, "It was a rebound that went in, after the foul." Did not hear another word about it from the coach.
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Sun Jan 15, 2006, 02:30am
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Let us focus on the phrases: "customary arm movement" and "usual foot or body movement." If a player gets whacked while "in the act of shooting" then loses the ball, even very briefly, recovers it in mid-air, and puts it in the basket, this play would not seem to fit the descriptive terms customary or usual.
__________________
I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum. It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow. Lonesome Dove
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Sun Jan 15, 2006, 08:53am
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Yup, it's gotta be 2 shots on the original foul. The ball didn''t go in on that try.
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Sun Jan 15, 2006, 11:29am
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1) Thanks, RefTN for teh NBA rule.
2) In addition to the rules JR(?) posted above, I think 6-7 Excp 3 applies, "The trying motion must be continuous.." If it's not continuous, then the ball is dead and the subsequent "try" is with a dead ball. IMO, if the official sees it as two separate acts (which is how I read the original play), then don't count the basket. If it's all one motion (all in the same direction), then count the basket.
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Sun Jan 15, 2006, 11:42pm
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