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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 10, 2006, 10:19pm
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In tonightÂ’s game we had an incident with a free throw shooter. It goes like this...player A at the line for the first of two free throws. My partner admin the first, bucket and it goes in, I get the ball off one bounce, announce "one shot" and go to bounce the ball to player A. (here is where it gets tricky) As the ball comes off the floor she goes to the sideline for some instructions from the coach. The ball, already in motion goes past the FT line and another player picks up the ball. They give it back to me and we try this again...should we have or does player A forfeit their shot???
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Old Tue Jan 10, 2006, 10:25pm
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WOW thats crazy if it were me I think i would have put the ball down began the 10 second count, then they would forfit the shot.
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Old Wed Jan 11, 2006, 05:50am
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I agree, once the ball's administered, back out of the key, and begin a visible count, if they throw the ball to you, just take it and hold it til the girl returns, then bounce it to her, meanwhile count the seconds (10 for you then, 5 in fiba) if she doesn't care, why should we care, just count it
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Old Wed Jan 11, 2006, 08:09am
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Quote:
Originally posted by crazy voyager
I agree, once the ball's administered, back out of the key, and begin a visible count, if they throw the ball to you, just take it and hold it til the girl returns, then bounce it to her, meanwhile count the seconds (10 for you then, 5 in fiba) if she doesn't care, why should we care, just count it
You don't have a violation in FIBA rules for the free-throw shooter leaving the semi-circle after getting the ball? The play that you described above is an immediate violation under NCAA and NFHS rules as soon as a foot of the free-thrower goes beyond the plane of a free-throw semicircle line. The ball had already been placed at the free-thrower's disposal before she threw it to you. Once she gets the ball, she'd better not leave the semicircle here.

In the original case, you could say that the ball was never at the disposal of the free-throw shooter before she left the semicircle, and thus no violation. However, she should never get close to making the sideline to talk to her coach before you're shooing her back in the circle. And you should also make sure that she knows that she'd better not try pulling that one again. Straight delay of game imo.
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Old Wed Jan 11, 2006, 08:27am
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Quote:
Originally posted by fonzzy07
WOW thats crazy if it were me I think i would have put the ball down began the 10 second count, then they would forfit the shot.
Not by FED rules. This was not after a TO, so the Resuming Play Procedure is not in effect. Immediate T, if you judge that it delayed the game.
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Old Wed Jan 11, 2006, 08:33am
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Quote:
Originally posted by bdub712
My partner admin the first, bucket and it goes in, I get the ball off one bounce, announce "one shot" and go to bounce the ball to player A.
I am confused.
Why did both officials each administer a free throw?
Maybe that confused the player?
mick
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Old Wed Jan 11, 2006, 08:34am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

In the original case, you could say that the ball was never at the disposal of the free-throw shooter before she left the semicircle, and thus no violation.
Not only could you say that, I think you must. iirc, the ball is not at the disposal of the FTer until s/he catches it (or it's placed on the floor in the resumption of play procedure).
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Old Wed Jan 11, 2006, 08:42am
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Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

In the original case, you could say that the ball was never at the disposal of the free-throw shooter before she left the semicircle, and thus no violation.
Not only could you say that, I think you must. iirc, the ball is not at the disposal of the FTer until s/he catches it (or it's placed on the floor in the resumption of play procedure).
Agree, which is why I wouldn't call an immediate violation under 9-1-7 on her. If she does get the ball though, she ain't gonna get away with wandering outa the circle. She also ain't gonna get to talk to her coach either, no matter what. As Chuck said, immediate delay-of-game "T" as per 10-3-6(a), or shoo-and-warn if you're a nice guy like me.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 11th, 2006 at 08:44 AM]
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Old Wed Jan 11, 2006, 09:31am
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RE: Mick

Mick,

In Louisiana the trail admin the first FT and the lead admin the second. I agree that there should have been a violation for leaving the circle. It was one of those, " did I just see what I thought I saw" moments.

Thank you all for the clarification.
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Old Wed Jan 11, 2006, 09:55am
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Re: RE: Mick

Quote:
Originally posted by bdub712
Mick,

In Louisiana the trail admin the first FT and the lead admin the second. I agree that there should have been a violation for leaving the circle.

Thank you all for the clarification.
Now I need a clarification. What was the violation that should have been called? There's no violation for leaving the circle unless the ball is already at the shooter's disposal. And in your case, the ball was NOT at the shooter's disposal.

If you're a nice guy like JR, you shoo the kid back to the circle and you have nothing. If you're a hard-dexter, it's an immediate T for delay. There's no violation to be called here that I can see.
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Old Wed Jan 11, 2006, 09:56am
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Re: RE: Mick

Quote:
Originally posted by bdub712
Mick,

In Louisiana the trail admin the first FT and the lead admin the second. I agree that there should have been a violation for leaving the circle. It was one of those, " did I just see what I thought I saw" moments.

Thank you all for the clarification.

I understand. Thanks, bdub712.
We used to do that, too.

In your case, due to obvious confusion, I would not make a call, or present a warning. I'd just get the player back to bidness with very little fanfare.
mick

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Old Wed Jan 11, 2006, 10:34am
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Why didn't someone get the shooter right away when they left the circle? I'd hit my whistle and tell the player and coach this isn't a time out. Get them in and shoot.
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Old Thu Jan 12, 2006, 03:41am
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Quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by crazy voyager
I agree, once the ball's administered, back out of the key, and begin a visible count, if they throw the ball to you, just take it and hold it til the girl returns, then bounce it to her, meanwhile count the seconds (10 for you then, 5 in fiba) if she doesn't care, why should we care, just count it
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You don't have a violation in FIBA rules for the free-throw shooter leaving the semi-circle after getting the ball? The play that you described above is an immediate violation under NCAA and NFHS rules as soon as a foot of the free-thrower goes beyond the plane of a free-throw semicircle line. The ball had already been placed at the free-thrower's disposal before she threw it to you. Once she gets the ball, she'd better not leave the semicircle here.

In the original case, you could say that the ball was never at the disposal of the free-throw shooter before she left the semicircle, and thus no violation. However, she should never get close to making the sideline to talk to her coach before you're shooing her back in the circle. And you should also make sure that she knows that she'd better not try pulling that one again. Straight delay of game imo.
I think you misintered it, I meant if a player behind the 3 point line passes the ball back to you, not the FT shooter
How ever you're right, there's a violation for leaving the circle with the ball at disposal, question is, if a player leaves just as you show 2 shots or bounces the ball (yes that extremly ignorant, but I know players who could do that) is the ball at their disposal? The rules say the changes for subs to enter end when the shooter has the ball at his/her disposal, so when's that? When the ball is grabbed by the shooter, or when the official passes the ball to the shooter? I can't find a definition for this in my book
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Old Thu Jan 12, 2006, 05:16am
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Hello, I am new here... but in the NFHS Case book 10.3.6:

Delay by Free Thrower - The calling offical has reported the foul and has given directions to the players along the lane. The official is ready to put the ball into play at free thrower A1's disposal, but A1 is at the sideline talking to the coach. RULING: A technical foul for delay is charged to A1. No warning is authorized in this situation. (10-3-6c)
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Old Thu Jan 12, 2006, 07:26am
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Quote:
Originally posted by cshields
Hello, I am new here... but in the NFHS Case book 10.3.6:

Delay by Free Thrower - The calling offical has reported the foul and has given directions to the players along the lane. The official is ready to put the ball into play at free thrower A1's disposal, but A1 is at the sideline talking to the coach. RULING: A technical foul for delay is charged to A1. No warning is authorized in this situation. (10-3-6c)
This is a completely different situation than the one that we've been discussing. In this case play, the FT shooter has never entered the FT semicircle. That's why it's a delay-of-game "T" under 10-3-6(c).

In the play we've been discussing, the FT shooter is already in the FT semicircle, but then left after receiving the ball or having it at their disposal. That's still a delay-of-game "T", but this "T" is called under a different rule- 10-3-6(a)- as already cited above.

Iow, apples and oranges.

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