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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 05, 2006, 12:56pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by brianp134
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
It sounds as though L could have seen the trap developing, and started a rotation and thus had a fair angle to see the contact.

If I were the C, I'd be thrilled if someone called that out from under me (someone besides a coach!). I think the most important thing in this sitch is to get the call right, regardless of who has the angle.
Rainmaker, I have to disagree with you on this one. I wouldn't want someone coming approx 40ft. to take a call away from me while I am approx 5 ft away and the T in the vicinity. For the life of me, I can't see the L making this call, especially on the endline. IMO if the L has no competitive matchups, then he should be doubling the lines and should be free throw extended. If that is the case, then he may have a whistle on the play.
I haven't done much 3-person at all, so I can't say I have it down pat, so maybe I'll word my viewpoint in the form of a question -- Jeopardy-style. These aren't intended to be Socratic, they are genuine uncertainties.

It sounds as though there are no players that need watching that are below the free-throw line extended. Why would Lead be clear down on the endlne?
He should not be. From what I can tell reading the thread the L should have been about at the top of the key on his sideline.
So that would mean that he shouldn't be thinking about rotating yet? And shouldn't be looking "way over there"?
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 05, 2006, 01:03pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by brianp134
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
It sounds as though L could have seen the trap developing, and started a rotation and thus had a fair angle to see the contact.

If I were the C, I'd be thrilled if someone called that out from under me (someone besides a coach!). I think the most important thing in this sitch is to get the call right, regardless of who has the angle.
Rainmaker, I have to disagree with you on this one. I wouldn't want someone coming approx 40ft. to take a call away from me while I am approx 5 ft away and the T in the vicinity. For the life of me, I can't see the L making this call, especially on the endline. IMO if the L has no competitive matchups, then he should be doubling the lines and should be free throw extended. If that is the case, then he may have a whistle on the play.
I haven't done much 3-person at all, so I can't say I have it down pat, so maybe I'll word my viewpoint in the form of a question -- Jeopardy-style. These aren't intended to be Socratic, they are genuine uncertainties.

It sounds as though there are no players that need watching that are below the free-throw line extended. Why would Lead be clear down on the endlne?
He should not be. From what I can tell reading the thread the L should have been about at the top of the key on his sideline.
So that would mean that he shouldn't be thinking about rotating yet? And shouldn't be looking "way over there"?
Nope, if the players nearest the basket are at the top of the key then there shouldn't be a rotation.

IMO if the L's on the sideline at the top of the key there is no way he will not see what's going on just inside the half court line opposite him, at least peripherally. Also IMO he's gonna have A1's coach standing up right behind or next to him screaming about the foul on A1 whether there was in fact a foul or not.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 05, 2006, 01:08pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
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Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by brianp134
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
It sounds as though L could have seen the trap developing, and started a rotation and thus had a fair angle to see the contact.

If I were the C, I'd be thrilled if someone called that out from under me (someone besides a coach!). I think the most important thing in this sitch is to get the call right, regardless of who has the angle.
Rainmaker, I have to disagree with you on this one. I wouldn't want someone coming approx 40ft. to take a call away from me while I am approx 5 ft away and the T in the vicinity. For the life of me, I can't see the L making this call, especially on the endline. IMO if the L has no competitive matchups, then he should be doubling the lines and should be free throw extended. If that is the case, then he may have a whistle on the play.
I haven't done much 3-person at all, so I can't say I have it down pat, so maybe I'll word my viewpoint in the form of a question -- Jeopardy-style. These aren't intended to be Socratic, they are genuine uncertainties.

It sounds as though there are no players that need watching that are below the free-throw line extended. Why would Lead be clear down on the endlne?
He should not be. From what I can tell reading the thread the L should have been about at the top of the key on his sideline.
So that would mean that he shouldn't be thinking about rotating yet? And shouldn't be looking "way over there"?
Nope, if the players nearest the basket are at the top of the key then there shouldn't be a rotation.

IMO if the L's on the sideline at the top of the key there is no way he will not see what's going on just inside the half court line opposite him, at least peripherally. Also IMO he's gonna have A1's coach standing up right behind or next to him screaming about the foul on A1 whether there was in fact a foul or not.
Okay, so Lead sees the trap close in, sees the ball-holding player pivot his body so that C is blocked, sees the foul. Does Lead call it?
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 05, 2006, 01:14pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker


Okay, so Lead sees the trap close in, sees the ball-holding player pivot his body so that C is blocked, sees the foul. Does Lead call it?
That was the original question, wasn't it?

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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 05, 2006, 01:21pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
he's got no competetive match-up in his primary, and he's using "wide eyes" to "see the whole floor" and lo and behold there's a trap developing on the far side of the floor. WHy wouldn't he immediately rotate to help out?
Because in HS and NCAA, we generally pre-game that we don't rotate until we have 10 players and 3 officials in the frontcourt. As was pointed out on the first page or two of this thread (by tomegun), the NBA officials will rotate much sooner if they see this sitch developing. But, at least around here, we won't go that soon.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 05, 2006, 01:25pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
he's got no competetive match-up in his primary, and he's using "wide eyes" to "see the whole floor" and lo and behold there's a trap developing on the far side of the floor. WHy wouldn't he immediately rotate to help out?
Because in HS and NCAA, we generally pre-game that we don't rotate until we have 10 players and 3 officials in the frontcourt. As was pointed out on the first page or two of this thread (by tomegun), the NBA officials will rotate much sooner if they see this sitch developing. But, at least around here, we won't go that soon.
I can accept that, but what's the answer to the original question? Should lead have called this? If not, why not? And why isn't the original post-er around to help us out with the sitch? And what about Naomi?
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 05, 2006, 01:33pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
I can accept that, but what's the answer to the original question?
I already gave my answer in the first couple pages.

Quote:
Should lead have called this?
Yes, with conditions.

Quote:
And why isn't the original poster around to help us out with the sitch?
I have no idea what the answer to this is.

Quote:
And what about Naomi?
Not only do I have no idea what the answer to that question is, I have no idea what what the question is.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 05, 2006, 02:08pm
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Originally posted by ChuckElias

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And what about Naomi?
Not only do I have no idea what the answer to that question is, I have no idea what what the question is.
Yea, you're too young. Does anyone remember "The Electric Company" on public television in the 70's? It was for beginning readers, past Sesame Street, but not really up to reading alone. Every day, at the end of the show there was an installment in their soap opera, "Love of Chair". Regardless of what happened in that episode, there were questions at the end, such as "Will the dog run? Can the boy jump?" and the last question was always, "What about Naomi?" It made a deep impression on me, obviously. I've been scarred for life, since I was required to attend high school instead of staying home watching educational television, and I've never discovered the answer to that eternal question, "What about Naomi?"
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 05, 2006, 02:42pm
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Don't worry, Chuck. I never watch public television either. It's too bleeding-heart liberal for me. Besides, it obviously scarred the people who did watch...
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 05, 2006, 03:22pm
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Hey, I watched the Electric Company. Who can forget Rita Moreno belting out "Hey you guuuuuyyyyyyyys!" at the beginning of the show. And I remember Spiderman, and a couple other things about it. But I don't remember the soap opera.

And now. . . the last word: ancient.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 05, 2006, 03:45pm
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I vote YES to the question of "should the Lead have called the foul".

You can talk all the mechanics you want, but if I'm on the crew and the foul doesn't get called - I certainly am not looking forward to the following conversation(s) from the losing coach/supervisor:

Coach/Supervisor: didn't you see that foul?
Lead/Trail: I did but didn't call it - it's not in my area. (not a good way to answer that one)
OR
Coach/Supervisor: didn't you see that foul?
Center: I didn't have a good look at it.
Coach: WHAT?! You were 5ft away!
Center: I just didn't see it.
OR
Coach/Supervisor: didn't you see that foul?
Lead/Trail: I wasn't looking in that area.
Coach/Supervisor: you mean we've got 3 officials and none of you can see an obvious foul in the last 5 seconds of a game near mid-court?!!!!!

If everyone agrees that it was a foul - although none of us were there, I haven't heard anyone say it WASN'T a foul - then someone HAS to call it.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 05, 2006, 03:52pm
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Originally posted by ChuckElias
Hey, I watched the Electric Company. Who can forget Rita Moreno belting out "Hey you guuuuuyyyyyyyys!" at the beginning of the show.
Yup, and she had nice gabonzas too. Anyway, that's why I used to watch it with my kids.

I can remember my youngest son saying to me "Did you see the hooters on that one, Dad?" Yup, brought a catch to my throat and a tear to my eye. Kids- they just grow up so quickly. He was four.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 5th, 2006 at 03:55 PM]
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 05, 2006, 04:25pm
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Originally posted by ChuckElias
Hey, I watched the Electric Company. Who can forget Rita Moreno belting out "Hey you guuuuuyyyyyyyys!" at the beginning of the show. And I remember Spiderman, and a couple other things about it. But I don't remember the soap opera.

And now. . . the last word: ancient.
Well, ok, I vaguely remember it as well. But I was a kid back then, just like I'm sure you were, so we're obviously not as ancient as some people who watched it with their kids. Shhh...just don't tell anybody I actually watched PBS, ok?

Oh, yea, back to the topic. I've been working on my patient keyboard mechanic, waiting until now. jeffpea seems to have the same feeling I do - if it's the right call, make it. Now, we can discuss all day whether the C was caught in the wrong spot, whether the T should've been drifting over more, or whether the L should or should not have started a rotation. But the comment about the crew losing credibility if someone calls out of their area, at this point in the game, just isn't true. Do you think if the players, or the coach, asks why the foul wasn't called, and your reply is to say "It's not the T's or L's call", they would gain this new-found respect for the crew? Hell no. Now, to me, "getting it right" is more than just getting the call right. As Tommy, (er, I mean Tom ) said, sometimes it's used as an excuse for having more eyes on-ball. But, at least with most of the partners I work with, "getting it right" is the whole package - being in the right position and hustling to get there, knowing your areas of coverage, trusting your partners to cover their areas, etc. But, sometimes, being aware of something that happens outside your area can actually bring more credibility to the crew. If I'm the C in this case, I'm thanking my partner for making the right call, then apologizing to them for not being in the right spot to make the call in the first place.

One other thing: the call has to be the right one. If it wasn't, I'll be standing right next to the coach as we both yell at the L for making that long-distance wrong call.
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Old Thu Jan 05, 2006, 04:42pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
Hey, I watched the Electric Company. Who can forget Rita Moreno belting out "Hey you guuuuuyyyyyyyys!" at the beginning of the show. And I remember Spiderman, and a couple other things about it. But I don't remember the soap opera.

And now. . . the last word: ancient.
Like you, I remember Rita Moreno and Spiderman. But then one wonders, if you've got Spiderman, why WOULD anybody remember some silly soap?
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Old Thu Jan 05, 2006, 04:45pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by M&M Guy
Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
Hey, I watched the Electric Company. Who can forget Rita Moreno belting out "Hey you guuuuuyyyyyyyys!" at the beginning of the show. And I remember Spiderman, and a couple other things about it. But I don't remember the soap opera.

And now. . . the last word: ancient.
Well, ok, I vaguely remember it as well. But I was a kid back then, just like I'm sure you were, so we're obviously not as ancient as some people who watched it with their kids. Shhh...just don't tell anybody I actually watched PBS, ok?

Oh, yea, back to the topic. I've been working on my patient keyboard mechanic, waiting until now. jeffpea seems to have the same feeling I do - if it's the right call, make it. Now, we can discuss all day whether the C was caught in the wrong spot, whether the T should've been drifting over more, or whether the L should or should not have started a rotation. But the comment about the crew losing credibility if someone calls out of their area, at this point in the game, just isn't true. Do you think if the players, or the coach, asks why the foul wasn't called, and your reply is to say "It's not the T's or L's call", they would gain this new-found respect for the crew? Hell no. Now, to me, "getting it right" is more than just getting the call right. As Tommy, (er, I mean Tom ) said, sometimes it's used as an excuse for having more eyes on-ball. But, at least with most of the partners I work with, "getting it right" is the whole package - being in the right position and hustling to get there, knowing your areas of coverage, trusting your partners to cover their areas, etc. But, sometimes, being aware of something that happens outside your area can actually bring more credibility to the crew. If I'm the C in this case, I'm thanking my partner for making the right call, then apologizing to them for not being in the right spot to make the call in the first place.

One other thing: the call has to be the right one. If it wasn't, I'll be standing right next to the coach as we both yell at the L for making that long-distance wrong call.
Good post, I agree...too bad you watch PBS.
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