How far will you go to save a game?

[jbduke]

Team A is down 2 with 10 seconds to go, bringing the ball up-court versus full-court pressure. A1 dribbles up the sideline with B1 running beside him, picking up his dribble when B2 slides over to the sideline, five feet or so into the front-court to cut him off. The slot official is on-ball, having run side-by-side with A1 since the dribble began. A1 is now trapped, and he pivots away from the slot toward the middle of the floor. As/after pivot occurs, B1 reaches in and grabs A1's forearm, dispossesses him of the ball then picks it up. I am sitting in the stands opposite the slot, so I am able to see the grab, the grab that he cannot see. When I don't hear an immediate whistle, I glance back at the trail hoping he has a look, and as I'm doing that, I hear a crack, and I see the lead closing down on the play with a fist held high. He was underneath the basket when the foul occurred. The clock stops with 5.3 left and A1 on the line for two. I'll save the end of the game and the post-game discussion for later, except to say that the trail told his partners that he didn't have any kind of a look on the play.

Would you make this call from lead? from trail? If you do, what is your general philosophy on the circumstances under which you would make it (time, margin, previous plays, etc.)? What's your reaction if you're the slot or trail?



[Edited by jbduke on Jan 4th, 2006 at 03:24 AM]

[blindzebra]

Did A1 pivot away from C toward the basket?

I'm assuming that C was in a stack caused by A1's body, while T probably would be looking through B1.

It's possible that in this case L would be the only official with an open look, not that they should be looking there.

This play is the very situation where C should force the rotation and back out and become trail.

[jbduke]

Originally posted by blindzebra
Did A1 pivot away from C toward the basket?

I'm assuming that C was in a stack caused by A1's body, while T probably would be looking through B1.

It's possible that in this case L would be the only official with an open look, not that they should be looking there.

This play is the very situation where C should force the rotation and back out and become trail.

Yes. A1 pivoted "through" the basket; i.e. the ball, during the pivot, swept an arc that included the basket. Your two assumptions are correct. Also, the L was indeed the only official with an open look.

Regarding your last point, this was a quick transition situation at the end of a period. "Backing out" by the slot is not an issue here, because he went from a virtual sprint with A1 up the sideline, to a quick stop once A1 picked up the dribble to avoid a PC foul at the point of the trap (five feet or so beyond division line in FC). Had time not been running out, there would have been no "backing out" to speak of. The lead would have rotated, and the old slot would have become the new trail, with no movement necessary on his part, save a small position adjustment to open the angle which closed on him when A1 pivoted.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by jbduke

Yes. A1 pivoted "through" the basket; i.e. the ball, during the pivot, swept an arc that included the basket. Your two assumptions are correct. Also, the L was indeed the only official with an open look.

Regarding your last point, this was a quick transition situation at the end of a period. "Backing out" by the slot is not an issue here, because he went from a virtual sprint with A1 up the sideline, to a quick stop once A1 picked up the dribble to avoid a PC foul at the point of the trap (five feet or so beyond division line in FC). Had time not been running out, there would have been no "backing out" to speak of. The lead would have rotated, and the old slot would have become the new trail, with no movement necessary on his part, save a small position adjustment to open the angle which closed on him when A1 pivoted.

What I'm saying is C should have FORCED the rotation by becoming the trail and thus TRAILING the play. Different areas do different things with last second shots and locking down, but even in that situation C needs to anticipate the trap and not try to out run the play.

I liken it to new lead knowing they are beat and instead of trying to out run the play, gather yourself, slow down and work the angle to get the look.

[jbduke]

I can already tell we're never going to agree on this part of the issue. In a transition situation, I think it's just a horrible idea to prescribe that the slot official check up and trail a dribbler racing up his sideline when a trap may materialize. What about the potential block-charge developing? Your mechanic sends the slot directly into a stack, you've given the trail even less opportunity to be useful than he already had, and now you can rely only on the lead, fifty feet away, for help on this play. Disastrous, disastrous mechanic recommendation. The present system accounts for this situation as well as possible.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by jbduke
I can already tell we're never going to agree on this part of the issue. In a transition situation, I think it's just a horrible idea to prescribe that the slot official check up and trail a dribbler racing up his sideline when a trap may materialize. What about the potential block-charge developing? Your mechanic sends the slot directly into a stack, you've given the trail even less opportunity to be useful than he already had, and now you can rely only on the lead, fifty feet away, for help on this play. Disastrous, disastrous mechanic recommendation. The present system accounts for this situation as well as possible.

Unlike the stack the C found himself in, in your play?

This is no different than if the same play was coming down trail's side, by your logic trail...in spite of what the name suggests...should sprint and be even with the ball.

By staying even the C forced himself into a stack with the play happening right in their lap. No place to go, no room to adjust their angle.

C either needs to beat the play and be in front of it and have it come to him, or trail it to see the whole thing.

[tomegun]

I didn't think something was right as soon as I noticed the OP said the C was running side-by-side with the ball handler. I guess this is where we introduce that hated buzzword "trail mentality." If the play was on the sideline, where would the C go to anticipate a play, any play? My first choice would be backing out and getting an open look. We would almost have to see a diagram of the players' position to say where the correct position would have been, but I think the outcome tells us that it wasn't where the C was.

I don't like the L making this call. More than that, I don't like the fact that something went wrong mechanically. The L saved the game and hopefully the C is really thinking about their floor mechanics in a three person game.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by tomegun
I don't like the L making this call.

I don't like it, either. But especially in transition, when post play hasn't developed yet, the Lead can help out on plays that are coming toward him/her, even if it's not in his/her primary.

Having said that, it doesn't sound like this play actually was coming to the Lead, as the trap stopped the movement to the Lead. But I would rather have the Lead come and grab that call (especially in transition, as I said), than allow a clear foul to cause a turnover.

Unlike Tommy, I don't think the C can trail the play here. In order to trail this play, and have an angle, it sounds like you'd have to be out on the court, on that "volleyball line". That's not how "Trail mentality" was explained to me and even in the NBA (where "trail mentaility" was coined), I don't see a lot of Slot officials in a trail position in transition. Yes, it's better to be a little behind it than a little in front of it; but it's more important to see through the play. And it's possible to do that from the sideline, even if you're "even" with the ball; depending on the position of the players.

The key is angle, obviously. You go wherever you have to go to get the angle. I think Tommy and I would agree to that. My last thought is that no position or angle is going to be perfect. No position on the floor will allow you to see the foul when the ballhandler pivots away from you so that his body is between you and the ball. And that's when the C, or in this case the L, has to help out. And that has to be talked about in pre-game, too.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
The key is angle, obviously. You go wherever you have to go to get the angle. I think Tommy and I would agree to that. My last thought is that no position or angle is going to be perfect. No position on the floor will allow you to see the foul when the ballhandler pivots away from you so that his body is between you and the ball. And that's when the C, or in this case the L, has to help out. And that has to be talked about in pre-game, too.

Agreed. Since C was "even" with the play, he couldn't see the foul that the B player towards the middle of the floor committed. If C was trailing, he couldn't see the foul that the B player on the sideline might have committed.

[tomegun]

Chuck, you are right, the trail mentality would not be used in this case. In the league where this term came from, the NBA, they rotate a lot sooner. When the ball comes up the sideline, the Slot would back out and the L would rotate. This is an automatic response for this type of play to NBA officials and it would have helped on this play. If the play occurred in the area near the free-throw line extended, the L would have his eyes on it and the T would also. This is a play where they would probably want two sets of eyes on the ball, but those eyes would be in a better position. Of course this is if the officials aren't locked down. At any rate, what is your suggestion, because the L making this play over and over again is not the answer?

[tomegun]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Agreed. Since C was "even" with the play, he couldn't see the foul that the B player towards the middle of the floor committed. If C was trailing, he couldn't see the foul that the B player on the sideline might have committed.

So what is the answer? I'm in favor of doing away with this lock down theory and getting in position to see the plays. I think the C going to T would have allowed better vision and the L could have protected the T's front (basket) side.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by tomegun
When the ball comes up the sideline, the Slot would back out and the L would rotate.

Right. They probably would initiate the rotation even before the ball hit the frontcourt, right? But we don't like to do that in HS/NCAAM.

At any rate, what is your suggestion, because the L making this play over and over again is not the answer?

My only suggestion would be for the Trail to be more aware of the situation. If the C is even with the play, I would like to see the T move even further toward the middle of the court while coming from backcourt to frontcourt. Almost like we would do in a 2-whistle game.

When the ball is trapped in the corner of the frontcourt, I'd like the Trail to still be in the backcourt, near the jump circle, trying to get a look through the nearer defender. The C can handle the defender that is closer to the sideline.

We always say in pre-game that we want our C to be very active tonight. But this is a case where the Trail has to be active and get a look through the play. You can't let the C have the whole play, b/c it's obvious that s/he can't handle the whole play from the sideline.

This is a great thread, BTW. Good situation and good thoughts on it.

[tomegun]

I would say no. As a matter of fact, I would say NO, NO, NO! The C should work out their mechanics for a better look. Maybe, MAYBE, the L should think about coming over, but there is no way I would suggest the T should be looking over there. Are the players going to "make a hole" so the T can see through? IMO, the answer is still for the C to get a better look.

[jeffpea]

Ultimately, it sounds like the correct call was made. And THAT is the most important thing in this, or any other, situation. You always want to be in the correct position to make the call - but even if you're not, you (or your partner) have to make the correct call no matter where it comes from.

In this instance, I would have preffered the Trail to make the call rather than look to the Lead for his view. Here's my thought process: I'm certain it's a foul, I'm certain my partner didn't see it, therefore I'm certainly going to blow my whistle.

A good crew consists of good partners making good calls.

[jbduke]

Originally posted by blindzebra

Unlike the stack the C found himself in, in your play?

This is no different than if the same play was coming down trail's side, by your logic trail...in spite of what the name suggests...should sprint and be even with the ball.

By staying even the C forced himself into a stack with the play happening right in their lap. No place to go, no room to adjust their angle.

C either needs to beat the play and be in front of it and have it come to him, or trail it to see the whole thing.

My logic absolutely does not imply what you write that it does. The trail is the "trail" because he has help ahead and across the floor from the slot. The slot does not have this luxury, unless you're happy with the lead making these types of calls. If you are, cool; I had no problem with the lead making the call in the play I described. But you can't have the slot trail this play and be unhappy with the lead making the call from 50+ feet.

I think that there's no changing the fact that when one official is attempting to referee a trap by himself, there is the possibility of problems. The potential problem is exacerbated when in transition, because the players, and thus the officials, are more spread out.