How far will you go to save a game?

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by jbduke

My logic absolutely does not imply what you write that it does. The trail is the "trail" because he has help ahead and across the floor from the slot. The slot does not have this luxury, unless you're happy with the lead making these types of calls. If you are, cool; I had no problem with the lead making the call in the play I described. But you can't have the slot trail this play and be unhappy with the lead making the call from 50+ feet.

I think that there's no changing the fact that when one official is attempting to referee a trap by himself, there is the possibility of problems. The potential problem is exacerbated when in transition, because the players, and thus the officials, are more spread out.

I'm not alone in what I've been saying.

The trap in C's corner is the play that should force a rotation. C clearly cannot make the call from the position that they had, and the only way to fix that is for them to be in front of it and work back, or trail it. Trailing it would be the easiest and best option in transition with the play right in their lap.

[brianp134]

There is no way that the lead should have a whistle on this play! The slot official should not be running up with the ball. The slot official is clearly out of position on this play. He should have backed out away from the play and got a better look. The crew has lost all credibility, if the lead makes this call.

[jbduke]

Originally posted by brianp134
There is no way that the lead should have a whistle on this play! The slot official should not be running up with the ball. The slot official is clearly out of position on this play. He should have backed out away from the play and got a better look. The crew has lost all credibility, if the lead makes this call.

The crew loses more credibility with the lead making the correct call, or with team B running out the last five seconds with a two-point lead after an uncalled foul leads to the decisive turnover?

[zebraman]

Originally posted by brianp134
There is no way that the lead should have a whistle on this play! The slot official should not be running up with the ball. The slot official is clearly out of position on this play. He should have backed out away from the play and got a better look. The crew has lost all credibility, if the lead makes this call.

If I read the post correctly, I can't picture the lead looking at that play in the first place. Did he not have any matchups in his area that he was observing as the play was coming up the floor? Perhaps he did not trust this partner and that is why he was reffing out of his area.

I haven't had any partners this year so weak that I (as Lead) would be looking into an area where the C has primary and the T has secondary, even as the game winds down.

Z

[jbduke]

Important questions. The C was beaten in transition twice in the first half, and called a ghost foul in one of those situations, so I think that had something to do an apparent lack of trust.

There were no competitive match-ups below the head-of-key extended.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by jbduke
Important questions. The C was beaten in transition twice in the first half, and called a ghost foul in one of those situations, so I think that had something to do an apparent lack of trust.

There were no competitive match-ups below the head-of-key extended.

IMO, that changes everything. If I did not trust my partner and I had no matchups in my primary, then I might be helping out. However, I would sure hope that I trusted my T and it would sure look better if he grabbed that call.

Z

[rainmaker]

It sounds as though L could have seen the trap developing, and started a rotation and thus had a fair angle to see the contact.

If I were the C, I'd be thrilled if someone called that out from under me (someone besides a coach!). I think the most important thing in this sitch is to get the call right, regardless of who has the angle.

[alfreedog]

Originally posted by brianp134
There is no way that the lead should have a whistle on this play! The slot official should not be running up with the ball. The slot official is clearly out of position on this play. He should have backed out away from the play and got a better look. The crew has lost all credibility, if the lead makes this call.

You are not trying to gain credibility, you trying to get the call correct. I don't like the L making this call but if he does he better come strong closing hard and shouting at the same time. Because as soon as his whistle is blown heads are turning 45 degrees saying "whattttt". Lead is looking across the paint through the players 40 feet away blowing his whistle. He is all by himself when that whistle is blown and only thing he can do is bring everyone to that play with his whistle, words and (Tom and Jerry) his two feet running. IMO

[wwcfoa43]

To me, a help situation like this has to have two elements:

1. The helping official needs to have a very high level of certainty that the call is right, especially because of the distance involved.

2. Knowledge that the covering official cannot see the play is a requirement at that distance. The fact that the calling official passes on a call is many times ON PURPOSE and this needs to be respected.

I have had help situations in two many when the Lead cannot see a clear (from T's angle) push off by a player driving to the basket where the L is in a good position to see a block charge but cannot see the offensive players arm that is used to ward off the defender.

[tomegun]

Originally posted by jbduke

There were no competitive match-ups below the head-of-key extended.

Classic and convenient! One question though: were there any match-ups closer than the one in question?

I did not read the OP close enough and thought the play was near the free throw line extended. Sorry for my oversight. Now that I have corrected that mistake, there is really no way the L should have called this; he shouldn't have to. Again, the C shouldn't have been running along side the dribbler. It could result in instantly being stacked, Oh I'm sorry, it did result in him being stacked! Now that I know where the play took place, I think the C should have been lower than the play. Did he stop at the exact same time as the dribbler? How convenient that is! Since most of us don't know when the dribbler is going to pull up, I think most would have went at least another step past the dribbler. Unless...you see the trap coming. If the C was lower than the play, he would have seen the same thing the L saw.

OK, we have heard the line about getting it right being the most important thing. Spending 5% of the time on that statement and 95% of the time on making sure these types of things do not happen will decrease the times it happens! I think two person is more like survival and I've heard three person mechanics described as an art. The crew was mechanically wrong, period.

Thank God for geography!

[dhodges007]

Team is down 2 with 10 seconds left... Yes, the answer is yes L should make this call if they are 110% sure there was an obvious foul that C and T missed.

And to say that as L you aren't looking over in that direction and wouldn't help is ridiculous unless you are a rookie who isn't confident enough to help in this situation. As my partner I would say thanks! you just saved the game.

The other issue if you are slot or center and in transition the ball is on your side you should get behind it and trail that match-up. If you are staying ahead of the play you are going to find yourself straightlined, but if you are behind, just a few feet, you will have a better angle on any plays to the basket.

One more point to Lead making this call. When I was at camp two years ago we had a situation where I made a call from center (the wrong call) because both of my partners got "blocked" from the play. The evaluator said on the last play of the game you aren't allowed to become blocked out. Move to where you can see. If you are L and have to come half way into the key, then do so. If you are T and have to come half way on the court, then do so. If you are C and have to trail the play, then do so.

But hey that's just me...

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by dhodges007
Team is down 2 with 10 seconds left... Yes, the answer is yes L should make this call if they are 110% sure there was an obvious foul that C and T missed.

So then you're saying that the L should never make this call?

[tomegun]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

So then you're saying that the L should never make this call?

Chuck, last night I had a game and gave 110%!

[FrankHtown]

I think the crux of this is: Where was the T? If the ball is coming upcourt on the C's sideline, shouldn't the T be drifting towards the center of the floor instead of hugging his/her sideline? As was mentioned, if the T was on the court, towards the circle, and the dribbler turned toward the center of the floor, the T would have had a call right in front of him/her. I put this on the T for not helping out. I think instead of crucifying the C or the L, what was the T doing?

[zebraman]

Originally posted by dhodges007

And to say that as L you aren't looking over in that direction and wouldn't help is ridiculous unless you are a rookie who isn't confident enough to help in this situation. As my partner I would say thanks! you just saved the game.

I completely disagree. If I trust my partners, I will not be looking there. In a 3-official game, why would we have 6 eyes watching the on-ball matchup? The only time as lead that I might be peeking over there is if I have no trust of my partner(s).

It wouldn't show confidence for the L to go help in this situation. It would show a lack of confidence in the ability of your C and T.

Z