Rules stickler

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ATXCoach
Not that it will win me any fans on this board, but I hate the "I'm paid to ref, you're paid to coach" line. I would rather you skip that step and just go straight to the "stop sign" or even a T-bomb if you feel justified.

I must admit that everytime (maybe 5 times over the last 10 years) a ref has pulled the my job/your job argument on me I always say, "let me know when you're ready to start working." I fully expect to get a T for it, but I can't help myself - that line is the one that just gets under my skin.

The one and only time I used the your job/my job line I got back your response...only louder and less polite.

I never said it again.

[lmeadski]

That I should not have said what i did (I hope my prior post did not espouse saying such a response). It was the only time in my short reffing career (I am sure more will come) that I had had enough from a coach. It was after the game, I couldnt T him up, and, we were just getting going on a weekend long tournament. Having coached much more than I have reffed, it is interesting being in a reversed role. I no longer offer such overt comments, and, will drop a T when needed in the future. I was just frustrated that this particular coach wouldn't let it go! Anyway, I love your posts JR, i think you lend great value and incite to this site. And, the dinosaur references are to those who were reffing games when I was in high school (76-80) and are still at it today. No disrespect intended, grandpa.

[rainmaker]

Wow!! I don't know when I've been more wrong (welll, not on this board, anyway). I've used this line quite a few times and it's always been very effective for me. But considering the volume and intensity of the disagreement, I'll never recommend it to anyone else again.

Here's another one that has worked, although I never recommend it. Coach is up by 40 or 50 and still pressing. I said, quietly, "Coach, some people might think that keeping the press on in this situation is over-compensation." I've continued to ref his games over three or four years, and he's never said one more word to me. Not in games or in pre-game conferences or anything. Still, I don't recommend it.

[caliref]

I wasn't really making a specific example in my original post, more of a general one... and I think that the answers have all been good. In my experience, coaches that REALLY know the rules aren't the type of coaches that yap their head off the whole game and when they actually speak up, its a good idea to listen to them.

[Texas Aggie]

With coaches, I've found that what works best for me is a lot of "OKs" and "Yes sirs/maams" to general comments and questions. As a trial lawyer with a solid background in argumentation and debate, I can say with certainty there are few coaches that are going to win any argument with me. But that doesn't mean I want to engage them. In fact, I do my best to keep from arguing, saying specifically many times, "coach, I'm not going to argue with you."

The hardest situations to deal with are the situations where I'm trying to be cooperative and explain what I had and the coach doesn't really want to hear it. At that point, you have to tactfully say something like, "OK, coach, that's what we had; let's play ball."

On rare occassions, I will get on a coach for doing something he really shouldn't be. In ATX's example of "when are you going to start," I'd respond something like, "now, coach, you know that comment wasn't helpful and was really uncalled for." I may or may not give a T; depends on where I think the game is, under control wise.

Guys, you have to understand: when people get into their thinking/acting from pure emotion mode, they want a confrontation. If you give it to them, then you are satisfying them and throwing gas on a fire. My advice is to talk as little as you can get away with while still being respectful and not ignoring them. If a coach goes comletely insane, then, in addition to enforcing whatever rule infractions they have committed, its time at that point to ignoring them.

[lmeadski]

we had a light scrum inside the lane that ended in a jump ball. One of the boys on the tie up ripped his head out of the pile of kids, holding his nose as if he'd been hit. He limped (even though it was his nose that was hit) over to his bench. The coach had his hands up in the air, wondering where his foul call was. The coach calls a subsequent time out, motions me over to the team huddle and asks, "Well, you see this?" and points at his player with a wad of UNBLOODY gauze sticking out of his nose. "He then offers, "How do you think that happened, eh?" I said, "looks like he got hit in the nose, coach." I waited a moment, no reply, then walked away. I didn't argue, just stated the obvious. I think he was waiting for me to defend the call. I did, by not directly replying. It seemed to work well.

[just another ref]

Originally posted by lmeadski
3) the game seems to be being called one-sided The only time I really had an issue with the refs was with games "seemingly" called one-sided.

Well put. The words "seemingly" and "seems to be" are very important here. Occasionally this is just the way it is. I have had a game or, more often, a portion of a game once in a while where I looked back on it and said, "The calling in this game seemed one-sided to me, and I was one of the ones doing it, so I can imagine how it looked to everyone else."

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Wow!! I don't know when I've been more wrong (welll, not on this board, anyway). I've used this line quite a few times and it's always been very effective for me. But considering the volume and intensity of the disagreement, I'll never recommend it to anyone else again.

Juules, I don't know that your thought process is completely out of line. I've said, "Coach, you're not going to officiate tonight and I'm not going to coach. So let's draw that line now so we don't have any misunderstandings." I don't see anything wrong with that.

[tomegun]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Juules, I don't know that your thought process is completely out of line.[/B]

Aw, ain't that sweet! I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy inside...or I have gas!

The bottom line is confrontational statements aren't a good thing. We would all like to have "come-backs" and witty comments but - like a coach arguing after a call - what good are they going to do? I think it is highly unlikely for someone to make a smart comment to a coach and the situation takes a turn for the positive. It could happen, but I haven't seen it. WE are always learning, this is just another learning experience.

[BktBallRef]

I had two interesting conversations during a game on Monday evening.

First, there was an offensive rebound, put back and foul. I report and see that the home coach has come to the edge of the box, a sure sign he wants to talk.

"Tony, how is that not over the back?"

"Coach, he's 6'9". I can't call a foul on him just because he's taller than your guys. If he pushes on a rebound, I'll get it."

"What if one of my players puts a butt into him?"

"As long as they don't ride him out of bounds like 52 did while ago, I've got no problem with it."

Second play, the 6'9" kid dunks, pulls up and hangs on the rim. Two whistles but I beat the C to the it. Whack! Visiting coach has gotten up, so I stay tableside and back down to him as he comes to the edge of the box.

"Tony, didn't his momentum cause him to do that?"

"Coach, he caught the ball in the paint and went straight up. He didn't have any momentum."

"But if he had let go, he would have fell."

"I can't help that coach. He put himself in that position. All he had to do was dunk and come down. He chose to do the chin up."

A little later, I completely miss one, made the call but didn't see the whoel play.

Same coach, "Man, I wish I had had you guys last Friday," in reference to a game he lost."

"Okay, I missed that one. I admit it."

He couldn't help but smile and that was it.

I don't mind talking with or listening to a coach who's willing to talk to me in the same manner he wants me to talk to him. That's cool. In fact, I kinda enjoy that type of interaction. Don't show me up and I won't show you up.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
I don't mind talking with or listening to a coach who's willing to talk to me in the same manner he wants me to talk to him. That's cool. In fact, I kinda enjoy that type of interaction. Don't show me up and I won't show you up.

I'm trying to get better at that. The other thing that I've found is that if I get right up alongside a coach and talk quietly, it's easier for them to take something from me, and they feel less like they need to save face. Maybe the times I've gotten away with the "I'll ref, you coach" thing, it's because I did it very quietly like that. Something I'll have to think about.

But not tonight. I'm enjoying this eggnog (I drink mine with brandy).

[Forksref]

Last night in boys V game I had a timeout request. It was a full, I started the TO and the scorekeeper told me that the team had no more TO's left. After the TO I went to the coach and told him he had none left. His response (after a full TO) was, "How can you let that guy run through our guy? This is not football?" I can't believe the guy was focusing on a play a while back and had to let me have it after he had talked to his team for a minute and I had informed him about the TO situation. My response was silence. You can't get into trouble and you can't be misquoted with silence. I've learned to say less and although at first it was tough to do, I have had fewer confrontations and my attitude has improved.

[zebraman]

I think there is a time and place for a "cut to the chase" comment like "you coach, we ref." I think I've said that one time this year and I didn't regret it.

If a coach is respectful to me, he'll get courteous service.

If a coach is constantly whining about "missed calls" for the first two minutes of the game (traveling, 3-in-the-key, the typical ignorance), the "you coach, we ref" comment might be what he needs. More likely I'll say, "is there a question in there coach?," but sometimes the "parental voice" is necessary.

Z

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by rainmaker

You tell the coach that she's getting paid to coach, and you're getting paid to be the rules interpreter.

Juulie - surely you know the Davism for this. It's, "Coach - let's trade places. You come out here on the floor and ref, and I'll sit on the bench and act like a jackass."

And no - I did not call you Shirley.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by zebraman
I think there is a time and place for a "cut to the chase" comment like "you coach, we ref." I think I've said that one time this year and I didn't regret it.

If a coach is respectful to me, he'll get courteous service.

If a coach is constantly whining about "missed calls" for the first two minutes of the game (traveling, 3-in-the-key, the typical ignorance), the "you coach, we ref" comment might be what he needs. More likely I'll say, "is there a question in there coach?," but sometimes the "parental voice" is necessary.

Z

Agreed Z. I get to that point when he's crying about every play that he perceives to be an infraction. When he has that type of attitude, I'm not real interested in being nice.