Rules stickler

[SMEngmann]

The thing about the coach/ref line is that it is essentially baiting a technical. It could be seen as a zinger in which any response gets the T. On the "travel" every time up the court, the best response I have used it basically, "Not on every call" or something to that effect. If the coach is interested in reasonable dialogue, I might ask him what he's seeing that I'm not so I have something specific to look for and he knows that I'm hearing him. Of course most guys who whine about every call/no call are not interested in reasonable dialogue. Personally I wouldn't use the coach/ref line because if I do have a T, my assignor could say that I baited that T, or could've handled it differently. Just doesn't look good IMHO.

[johnny1784]

Originally posted by tomegun

Aw, ain't that sweet! I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy inside...or I have gas!

The bottom line is confrontational statements aren't a good thing. We would all like to have "come-backs" and witty comments but - like a coach arguing after a call - what good are they going to do? I think it is highly unlikely for someone to make a smart comment to a coach and the situation takes a turn for the positive. It could happen, but I haven't seen it. WE are always learning, this is just another learning experience. [/B]

IMO, it is ok to use a one liner that is witty.

Wit can defuse the tension between a coach and the officials.

If you have the personality and you are not being disrespectful, by all means if necessary use a witty comment to answer a head coach.

E.g., a head coach was belligerent over a foul call on his player. She is tall and carries a large frame.

While the official was reporting the player control foul, the head coach commented, "That was not a foul, she is a big girl who used a big girl move!" The official replied back, “No coach that was a big girl foul!"

Not only did the table chuckle, so did the players on the bench.

I was told, the head coach never again during the rest of the game question any calls or spoke of any smart remarks to the officials.

Maybe there are better ways to tell a coach to STFU but what ever way works for you may not work for others or may not be in ones own persona.

[johnny1784]

Originally posted by SMEngmann

I totally agree with this point, I ref, you coach is a terrible line in my book as it is way too confrontational.

Back to the original post, I don't understand what kind of coach would be a "rules stickler" if you're administering the game properly. We are not paid to decide which rules to enforce or which rules to not enforce, so my answer is that if it's a rules concern, you better be doing it the right way, which is by the book. There's no excuse to ignore rules, you need to do your job and administer the game.

Now if the coach is complaining about judgement calls/no calls, then there are several things you can say to the coach, such as, "That contact was incidental," "It didn't affect the shot," or even, "I'll watch for it." You shouldn't have sticklers about rules because you should always be on top of the rules, but if he's disputing judgement, you can address it a number of ways.

BTW: I don't know what level game the original post refers to, but if we're talking 3rd grade basketball and a coach who wants every travel, 3 seconds in the book, those calls fall under the category of judgement and there are plenty of ways to deal with this type of coach.

"I ref, you coach", is an acceptable partial quote from the CBOA (California Basketball Officials Association) handbook, S.A.V.R.S. (Short Answer Verbal Responses)...

WHEN A COACH IS WORKING THE OFFICIALS TOO HARD
Savr: "Coach, you need to coach your players and not the officials!"

WHEN A COACH'S ANGER IS BEGINNING TO ESCALATE
Savr: "Coach, IÂ’ve heard enough!" (Accompanied by the stop sign)

WHEN THE FOULS ARE LOPSIDED IN ONE TEAMS FAVOR
Savr: "We're not counting fouls coach, we're just calling them."

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by SMEngmann
The thing about the coach/ref line is that it is essentially baiting a technical. It could be seen as a zinger in which any response gets the T. On the "travel" every time up the court, the best response I have used it basically, "Not on every call" or something to that effect. If the coach is interested in reasonable dialogue, I might ask him what he's seeing that I'm not so I have something specific to look for and he knows that I'm hearing him. Of course most guys who whine about every call/no call are not interested in reasonable dialogue. Personally I wouldn't use the coach/ref line because if I do have a T, my assignor could say that I baited that T, or could've handled it differently. Just doesn't look good IMHO.

We can agree to disagree. When I tell a coach, "You're not going to officiate and I'm not going to coach," the message is, "I've heard enough." It's not baiting him into anything IMHO. What I've said is nowhere near as abusive as what the coach has been barking. There comes a time when enough is enough.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

We can agree to disagree. When I tell a coach, "You're not going to officiate and I'm not going to coach," the message is, "I've heard enough." It's not baiting him into anything IMHO. What I've said is nowhere near as abusive as what the coach has been barking. There comes a time when enough is enough.

When you say this, how do you expect the coach to respond? Do you expect and allow the coach to say something back, get the last word as it were? Or would you whack him if he said something back?

[SMEngmann]

Originally posted by johnny1784

"I ref, you coach", is an acceptable partial quote from the CBOA (California Basketball Officials Association) handbook, S.A.V.R.S. (Short Answer Verbal Responses)...

WHEN A COACH IS WORKING THE OFFICIALS TOO HARD
Savr: "Coach, you need to coach your players and not the officials!"

WHEN A COACH'S ANGER IS BEGINNING TO ESCALATE
Savr: "Coach, IÂ’ve heard enough!" (Accompanied by the stop sign)

WHEN THE FOULS ARE LOPSIDED IN ONE TEAMS FAVOR
Savr: "We're not counting fouls coach, we're just calling them."

I understand that the line is accepted and it is widely used, sometimes with more success than I've seen or imagined. As BktBallRef said, he has used it tactfully and successfully, but to me, personally, I don't find it very effective. I find the line too confrontational for most situations.

The more I officiate, the more I find that the best way to communicate with coaches is to work with them and do so on a human level. I've seen the CBOA guide as I am a member of the CBOA, and the SAVRs are simply guidelines to consider, rather than hard and fast rules. They are very helpful in teaching officials the basics of communication and helping us keep control of games, but often they are so confrontational that they lead to a number of technical fouls that may have otherwise been prevented. The problem with these guidelines is that they attempt to apply a one size fits all solution to coach-ref interaction, and some of them just further intensify any frustration/anger that may exist.

One thing that I have learned and continue to learn is that coaches are not the enemy, most of the time they just want an explanation or to have an opinion heard, it's not personal and as soon as I realized that the number of technicals I've called has fallen dramatically. Using this handbook at the wrong time can destroy any rapport as the coach will simply get more frustrated with your response. The coaches have much more at stake in the game than we do, so we should take that into account when dealing with them.

There is no such thing as an automatic response to a coach. BktBallRef's style probably differs from mine, some officials like to use humor and one liners because it fits their personality, I don't because it doesn't fit my personality. I stand by my original statement that if I said the "I coach, you ref" line, and then had to call a technical immediately on the coach, I would have a hard time defending that T to my assignor because in my personality it sounds like I baited it. IMO, the worst thing I can do is back the coach into a corner because then it starts to become personal, but my way clearly isn't the only way. Whatever works for your personality is best.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
When you say this, how do you expect the coach to respond? Do you expect and allow the coach to say something back, get the last word as it were? Or would you whack him if he said something back?

I don't have an expected response. I don't have a pre-determined agenda in mind if I use the phrase. I don't view it as a smartass remark. I can simply tell you that I've never had an issue when I've said it. Why? Perhaps because I'm being completely truthful. "Coach, I'm not going to coach tonight and you aren't going to officiate." The message is clear. I'm going to do my job and you're going to do yours without any interference from the other.

[JRutledge]

Whatever an official says to a coach, it has to be within their personality or the comments are not going to come off the right way. I know I can be a smart *** sometimes, but it works for me because of the facial expressions and the tone that goes along with it. I know some guys that can make jokes constantly and it works for them because that is how they are off the court. You also have to know your audience. I know if I say certain things in one area that might I better use another choice of words in another area (Chicago Public League/Catholic League vs. many suburban areas). One size does not fit all and you have to learn when to use certain lines and when not to use them.

Peace

[johnny1784]

Originally posted by SMEngmann

I understand that the line is accepted and it is widely used, sometimes with more success than I've seen or imagined. As BktBallRef said, he has used it tactfully and successfully, but to me, personally, I don't find it very effective. I find the line too confrontational for most situations.

The more I officiate, the more I find that the best way to communicate with coaches is to work with them and do so on a human level. I've seen the CBOA guide as I am a member of the CBOA, and the SAVRs are simply guidelines to consider, rather than hard and fast rules. They are very helpful in teaching officials the basics of communication and helping us keep control of games, but often they are so confrontational that they lead to a number of technical fouls that may have otherwise been prevented. The problem with these guidelines is that they attempt to apply a one size fits all solution to coach-ref interaction, and some of them just further intensify any frustration/anger that may exist.

One thing that I have learned and continue to learn is that coaches are not the enemy, most of the time they just want an explanation or to have an opinion heard, it's not personal and as soon as I realized that the number of technicals I've called has fallen dramatically. Using this handbook at the wrong time can destroy any rapport as the coach will simply get more frustrated with your response. The coaches have much more at stake in the game than we do, so we should take that into account when dealing with them.

There is no such thing as an automatic response to a coach. BktBallRef's style probably differs from mine, some officials like to use humor and one liners because it fits their personality, I don't because it doesn't fit my personality. I stand by my original statement that if I said the "I coach, you ref" line, and then had to call a technical immediately on the coach, I would have a hard time defending that T to my assignor because in my personality it sounds like I baited it. IMO, the worst thing I can do is back the coach into a corner because then it starts to become personal, but my way clearly isn't the only way. Whatever works for your personality is best.

Come on now, do you really believe that I posted those comments as being a requirement, an automatic response for all basketball officials to communicate back to a head coach?

Those were posted as a suggestion and yes, the coach will or attempts to back you into a corner, each and every game you officiate. It is their god given belief to do so.

I do not think a good official feels that a head coach should not have a warm-hearted short conversation with an official.

The problem is a head coach needs to understand when it is appropriate to converse to an official. It sure isnÂ’t warm-hearted to do so during a live ball unless it is for a correctable error, a time-out or the coach screams... "Hey ref, I give up. My team quits!"

You might feel more comfortable by ignoring and holding long personal conversations with an irate or pesky like head coach.

Maybe youÂ’re more like the football ref in those Budweiser commercials, where the football coach who keeps yelling into the football ref's ears but the ref holds a very calm, straight face look and never makes a comment.

You do not have to be funny when using humor to get your message across that you had enough of an irritating coach.

When a coach keeps yelling give me some of those calls too, why not reply with "coach, I ran out of minutes on my AT&T calling card."

It may or may not cease the tension but at least you tried yet if he had asked a question, you could respond on a dead ball... "Coach, we are calling it on both ends... "Can you hear me now?"

[SMEngmann]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by johnny1784
The problem is a head coach needs to understand when it is appropriate to converse to an official. It sure isnÂ’t warm-hearted to do so during a live ball unless it is for a correctable error, a time-out or the coach screams... "Hey ref, I give up. My team quits!"

You might feel more comfortable by ignoring and holding long personal conversations with an irate or pesky like head coach.

Maybe youÂ’re more like the football ref in those Budweiser commercials, where the football coach who keeps yelling into the football ref's ears but the ref holds a very calm, straight face look and never makes a comment.
[/B][/QUOTE

I totally agree with you, and I'm not knocking you for bringing up the guidelines because they are useful guidelines. The more I officiate though, the more I realize the importance of being approachable to a coach, or to simply give coaches your ear in good faith.

Now I don't feel that ignoring a coach is a good policy because he will just get more irritated in most cases. A coach should be addressed in some way, be it approachable body language, a nod of the head, or a verbal acknowledgement. Long conversations are also a no-no because they look bad from the other coach's perspective and there's too much being said on the official's part that could be misquoted or misinterpreted. In other words, the more you talk, the more likely you put yourself in a box.

In terms of the "irate" coach, that coach is beyond conversation, and depending on the situation, I will remind him of his box or take care of business if needed. My goal is to try to prevent the irate coach situation from occurring if at all possible. Regarding the "Budweiser Ref" analogy, darn right if a coach is yelling and screaming at me, I would aspire to stay emotionless, stonefaced and quiet, and when he finishes his rant, then hit him with a calm T. I'm not there yet, but that's where I want to be, in complete control of my emotions. Again, I aspire to depersonalize all comments directed at me the official and to deal with the coach on a personal and professional level.

[basketballen]

This may be a good place for me to jump in with my first post. I've been reading this forum for a couple of years and have benefitted often. I hope this will be a contribution.

It's my opinion that several solid suggestions can be taken from this thread. Primarily, we should constantly be aware of our people skills and how we handle coaches and players.

Our local association has a young 30 year old official that has moved up to the D-1 level quickly and is also working the NBA development league. He shared his thoughts on sideline communication with us and it boils down to the following.

1. Every official needs to learn what works for their personality. (As has been noted by several posters here.)
2. Remember that the coach is the most emotional person in the building.
3. Being non-confrontational yet authoritative (not bossy) is critical. Maintain respect.
4. Remember that comments don't require a response and questions might. The less said the better. (see coaches 5 count below)
5. Take care of business.

He said that being a young official at the D-1 level has given him a lot of opportunities to work on his communication skill as the coaches get after him pretty hard at times. He likes to use what I've come to call the "coaches 5 count" for the irritating coach that's fussing on every trip.

1. yes sir/ma'am
2. coach, I hear you.
3. coach, I understand.
4. coach, that's enough or stop sign. (you won't see stop signs too often at the higher levels.)
5. WHACK!

I'm working on my patience as I tend to leave out step 3 and go straight to step 4 and then whack.

Merry Christmas to all! Coaches too.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

I don't have an expected response. I don't have a pre-determined agenda in mind if I use the phrase. I don't view it as a smartass remark. I can simply tell you that I've never had an issue when I've said it. Why? Perhaps because I'm being completely truthful. "Coach, I'm not going to coach tonight and you aren't going to officiate." The message is clear. I'm going to do my job and you're going to do yours without any interference from the other.

I only ask because I have occassionally said something to a coach to which he "escalated" and tried to one up me. At that point I whacked him. In thinking about that I am coming to the conclusion that if I am going to say something that could be construed as confrontational or smartassed to a coach, I had better be prepared to let him have a shot back at me. I don't know if that's right or wrong, I guess I'll just have to see how it goes ('cuz I'm not always smart enough to pick my words carefully in the heat of the moment).

[BktBallRef]

BITS, unless he says something that's personally attacking, I'm probably not going to be too concerned with his response...and I'm probably going to be gone anyway by the time he says it!

Maybe I can pull this off and others can't, I don't know. But I just don't have a problem with this turning into a baiting type of thing. Perhaps it's because my meaning is clear. Also, I don't have to use this with veteran coaches. Most of the veterans show me the same respect that I give them. It seems to be the younger coaches who are just moving into varsity jobs that require a little more "understanding" as to what's acceptable and what's not.

Do what works for you.

[ChrisSportsFan]

[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by johnny1784
[B]

You do not have to be funny when using humor to get your message across that you had enough of an irritating coach.

When a coach keeps yelling give me some of those calls too, why not reply with "coach, I ran out of minutes on my AT&T calling card."

It may or may not cease the tension but at least you tried yet if he had asked a question, you could respond on a dead ball... "Coach, we are calling it on both ends... "Can you hear me now?"



You're right, that's not funny