Rules stickler

[caliref]

Ok, so I am quite versed in the rules of basketball and am learning about the ways to apply the rules in the necessary situation. My question is..... if you have a coach that is questioning your rules interps and being a total stickler on the rules, do you start to follow suit on them or just let it go?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by caliref
Ok, so I am quite versed in the rules of basketball and am learning about the ways to apply the rules in the necessary situation. My question is..... if you have a coach that is questioning your rules interps and being a total stickler on the rules, do you start to follow suit on them or just let it go?

You tell the coach that she's getting paid to coach, and you're getting paid to be the rules interpreter. If she tries to argue that you're wrong about something, you say, "Tonight, I'm not coaching, and you're not reffing. If you feel I've made some mistakes, you can contact my assignor after the game." If there's any more complaining, you give the universal stop sign, and the next complaint after that buys the coach a seat belt. It's that simple.

[ATXCoach]

Not that it will win me any fans on this board, but I hate the "I'm paid to ref, you're paid to coach" line. I would rather you skip that step and just go straight to the "stop sign" or even a T-bomb if you feel justified.

I must admit that everytime (maybe 5 times over the last 10 years) a ref has pulled the my job/your job argument on me I always say, "let me know when you're ready to start working." I fully expect to get a T for it, but I can't help myself - that line is the one that just gets under my skin.

In order, my coaching pet peaves(sp) are :
1) missed layups,
2) missed free throws,
3) my job/your job argument,
4) turnover



I realize you guys deal with whining coaches all the time, so my views are certainly not important, I'm just presenting my opinion from the other side.

[SMEngmann]

Originally posted by ATXCoach
Not that it will win me any fans on this board, but I hate the "I'm paid to ref, you're paid to coach" line. I would rather you skip that step and just go straight to the "stop sign" or even a T-bomb if you feel justified.

I must admit that everytime (maybe 5 times over the last 10 years) a ref has pulled the my job/your job argument on me I always say, "let me know when you're ready to start working." I fully expect to get a T for it, but I can't help myself - that line is the one that just gets under my skin.

In order, my coaching pet peaves(sp) are :
1) missed layups,
2) missed free throws,
3) my job/your job argument,
4) turnover




I realize you guys deal with whining coaches all the time, so my views are certainly not important, I'm just presenting my opinion from the other side.

I totally agree with this point, I ref, you coach is a terrible line in my book as it is way too confrontational.

Back to the original post, I don't understand what kind of coach would be a "rules stickler" if you're administering the game properly. We are not paid to decide which rules to enforce or which rules to not enforce, so my answer is that if it's a rules concern, you better be doing it the right way, which is by the book. There's no excuse to ignore rules, you need to do your job and administer the game.

Now if the coach is complaining about judgement calls/no calls, then there are several things you can say to the coach, such as, "That contact was incidental," "It didn't affect the shot," or even, "I'll watch for it." You shouldn't have sticklers about rules because you should always be on top of the rules, but if he's disputing judgement, you can address it a number of ways.

BTW: I don't know what level game the original post refers to, but if we're talking 3rd grade basketball and a coach who wants every travel, 3 seconds in the book, those calls fall under the category of judgement and there are plenty of ways to deal with this type of coach.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

One of these days, ***** and some coach is trying to ref, I'm going to turn to his bench and tell the 5 crappiest players I can identify to go check in to the game. Then, when the coach asks me what the hell, I'm doing, I'll tell him that in return for helping me ref, I'm helping him coach.

[Edited by mick on Dec 23rd, 2005 at 08:14 AM]

[just another ref]

Originally posted by ATXCoach
3) my job/your job argument,
4) turnover

An exchange of words with an official bothers you more than a turnover? It seems that you would be more concerned with the issue over which you have some control.
jmo

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by ATXCoach
Not that it will win me any fans on this board, but I hate the "I'm paid to ref, you're paid to coach" line. I would rather you skip that step and just go straight to the "stop sign" or even a T-bomb if you feel justified.

I must admit that everytime (maybe 5 times over the last 10 years) a ref has pulled the my job/your job argument on me I always say, "let me know when you're ready to start working." I fully expect to get a T for it, but I can't help myself - that line is the one that just gets under my skin.

All that whining gets under our skin too. Or at the very least we know not to listen to you about much of anything the rest of the night. Or not to listen to you the next time we see you during another game.

Peace

[tomegun]

Originally posted by just another ref

An exchange of words with an official bothers you more than a turnover? It seems that you would be more concerned with the issue over which you have some control.
jmo

I coached one game (USA team vs a canada team during an exercise in Canada) and one game was enough. I don't think I would say a coach has control over turnovers. I felt like coaching was a very helpless job; I couldn't go out on the court and do what I was asking to do (I could, just not during that game).

But I think JAR does have a good point. It is kind of interesting that you this comment would be your pet peeve above something that happens multiple times every game.

I will offer this: a very esteemed official presented the case that the stop sign should be replaced by a more two-handed defensive posture. This is meant to seem more on the defense and not look aggressive like the stop sign. He got this method directly from his other job as an evaluator at Wizards games. I know we don't do NBA games, but I think it warrants some thought. I'm not a big into using the stop sign anyway.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by just another ref

An exchange of words with an official bothers you more than a turnover? It seems that you would be more concerned with the issue over which you have some control.
jmo

The smiley under the coach's list indicates that the list is (at least a little) tongue-in-cheek.

And, FWIW, I agree with him. I don't like the "my job/your job" argument, and I don't use it. ymmv, of course.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by caliref
Ok, so I am quite versed in the rules of basketball and am learning about the ways to apply the rules in the necessary situation. My question is..... if you have a coach that is questioning your rules interps and being a total stickler on the rules, do you start to follow suit on them or just let it go?

In order to answer this, I think we need to know the level of ball, and some of the specifics.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally posted by caliref
Ok, so I am quite versed in the rules of basketball and am learning about the ways to apply the rules in the necessary situation. My question is..... if you have a coach that is questioning your rules interps and being a total stickler on the rules, do you start to follow suit on them or just let it go?

What level of ball are we talking about here?
Is coach a rules stickler on both ends of the court?
What rules is coach squacking about?

Don't let it go on for to long without addressing the coach. Usually I start with a civil discussion something like: "coach what are you seeing?" or "coach, I'll watch for it." If coach continues, I'll watch real hard when his team has the ball as maybe they will commit this violation so I can call it for coach. Some might say I'm baiting the coach, but most times they will get the message. I also am not a fan or reminding anyone who's the coach/ref.

[ATXCoach]

Yes guys, I was making a joke.

Trust me, I've got your back 99.9999% of the time. I keep my whinning to an extreme minimum because I know it doesn't help me with the refs and it doesn't help my players play the game.

[Ref Daddy]

Had a coach friend once tell me coaching involved trying to "control the uncontrolable."

[lmeadski]

prior to become a ref. Most coaches get into a ref's ear when 1) they are losing 2) they are mad at their kids play and want to take it out on someone 3) the game seems to be being called one-sided 4) they are losing. The only time I really had an issue with the refs was with games "seemingly" called one-sided. If you are applying the rules equitably between the two teams, understand that the coach's intent may not be personal, or, about your calls at all. I have found "I'll watch for it coach" has worked very well (but, then you do have to watch for it....). Being a new ref, i don't know if the dinosaur ref agree with this position. But, I don't pay much attention to the stickler comments because coaches usually only whine when they are being outcoached or are losing. One time, during a summer tournament, a coach told me i reffed a terrible game (his team played D with their hands, not their feet, and we called a number of reaching calls). I was trying to walk away but he persisted. I stopped turned around to confront him (his eyes got real big, he knew he was over the line and think he thought I was going to pop him!). I said, "Coach, it appears you've never taught your kids how to play D correctly," and I shut up and looked at him right in his eyes. After about 5 seconds, he turned, walked away, and never said another word to me all weekend (I reffed them two more times). Maybe it was out of line, but it sure felt good!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by lmeadski
prior to become a ref. Most coaches get into a ref's ear when 1) they are losing 2) they are mad at their kids play and want to take it out on someone 3) the game seems to be being called one-sided 4) they are losing. The only time I really had an issue with the refs was with games "seemingly" called one-sided. If you are applying the rules equitably between the two teams, understand that the coach's intent may not be personal, or, about your calls at all. I have found "I'll watch for it coach" has worked very well (but, then you do have to watch for it....). Being a new ref, i don't know if the dinosaur ref agree with this position. But, I don't pay much attention to the stickler comments because coaches usually only whine when they are being outcoached or are losing. One time, during a summer tournament, a coach told me i reffed a terrible game (his team played D with their hands, not their feet, and we called a number of reaching calls). I was trying to walk away but he persisted. I stopped turned around to confront him (his eyes got real big, he knew he was over the line and think he thought I was going to pop him!). I said, "Coach, it appears you've never taught your kids how to play D correctly," and I shut up and looked at him right in his eyes. After about 5 seconds, he turned, walked away, and never said another word to me all weekend (I reffed them two more times). Maybe it was out of line, but it sure felt good!

1) I don't know if I'm the old dinosaur you're talking about, but saying something like that is fine with me. It just recognizes that you've heard the coach's' complaint and whine-time is over. Personally, I've always used something like "I'll call it if it's there, Coach".

2) This dinosaur doesn't like that one and recommends you forget about it completely. Do not ever tell coaches how to do their job and do not ever critique coaches and do not ever put a coach down. If you do, how can you "T" them up later if they do exactly the same thing to you? A "stop sign" or "that's enough" is a good enough warning. That puts the onus on the coach to either back off or risk getting nailed.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 23rd, 2005 at 11:43 AM]