Help a coach/ref

biz · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 21, 2005, 01:55pm

I am a HS JV coach/Varsity assistant coach and also a referee. I have coached for the last three years and I have reffed for the last 8.

I am constantly faced with getting myself in trouble in games I coach by protesting with officials who don't know the rules. I make it a point to NEVER argue a judgment call (Travel, foul, non-call) because I know how difficult it can be. I am also especially conscious to take it easy on JV officials, but I am also frustrated by VARSITY officials who don't know the rules.

Last night we had a situation where a player from the other team is instructed to change jerseys because his is saturated with blood. The player took off his jersey at his team bench which should have been called a T. I informed our Head Coach and he asked the officials who told him that this was a "special circumstance" which of course it is not (3-4-15).

As an assistant I know I shouldn't say anything, but something should be said by Head Coach...my question is how would you want to be approached by a coach with a possible rule issue?

Badger05 · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 21, 2005, 02:07pm

You may want to give the ol' rulebook a little review yourself. The rule you cite references rule 10-3-7h and 10-3-1h which are descriptions of UNSPORTING FOULS. My interpretation of the situation you describe is that the jersey was not removed in an unsporting manner, it was removed for the reasons described in 3-3-6 which clearly states that this situation can be corrected by the end of a requested time-out. I would think that one avenue of correction would be to remove and replace the jersey. I do not believe that the spirit of the rule is to apply it to the situation you describe in the way you describe.

Just my opinion.

Blind & lovin' it · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 21, 2005, 02:10pm

It's hard to change someones mind after they have given you their excuse (in this case) "its a special circumstance".

But the best way to approach me (I'd hate to speak for others) is to have the Head Coach politely mention that they beleive the ruling was in error. You may not get much response, but most guys will look it up at half time or the next day - or talk with the other offical about it.

Never under any circumstances start with "I'M A REF, so I KNOW you're wrong ..."

That's just asking for trouble.

I do question the circumstances around this - if there was that much blood, how badly was the kid hurt?

[Edited by Blind & lovin' it on Dec 21st, 2005 at 02:13 PM]

Rick82358 · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 21, 2005, 02:14pm

As an official I hate to see coaches and officials who do not know the rules.
As a coach do not *****, ask questions, treat the official the way you wish to be treated as a Ref. it will go a long way, NEVER use the I am a referee quote!

As far as the situation you mention with the jersey I do not have an NFHS book with me but in my opion the official was correct since the player was instructed by the offical to make the change and if the appropriate time out was taken to buy his way into the game, then I would have told you the same thing.

I do not deal enough with high school to know that it differs, but in a collegiate game this would never be an issue and it really shouldn't be in yours.
If you start trying to pull out little technicalities on an official they might just pull out something you might not be aware of, or big TECHNICALITY on you or your head coach for openly questioning their decisions?

IREFU2 · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 21, 2005, 02:15pm

Quote:

Originally posted by biz
I am a HS JV coach/Varsity assistant coach and also a referee. I have coached for the last three years and I have reffed for the last 8.

I am constantly faced with getting myself in trouble in games I coach by protesting with officials who don't know the rules. I make it a point to NEVER argue a judgment call (Travel, foul, non-call) because I know how difficult it can be. I am also especially conscious to take it easy on JV officials, but I am also frustrated by VARSITY officials who don't know the rules.

Last night we had a situation where a player from the other team is instructed to change jerseys because his is saturated with blood. The player took off his jersey at his team bench which should have been called a T. I informed our Head Coach and he asked the officials who told him that this was a "special circumstance" which of course it is not (3-4-15).

As an assistant I know I shouldn't say anything, but something should be said by Head Coach...my question is how would you want to be approached by a coach with a possible rule issue?

I dont know what is worse, Coaching/Officaiting or being a player/referee. I found that I couldnt do both and had to give one of them up. So I gave up playing. You may want to do some soul searching too in the matter.

Texref · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 21, 2005, 02:17pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Badger05
You may want to give the ol' rulebook a little review yourself. The rule you cite references rule 10-3-7h and 10-3-1h which are descriptions of UNSPORTING FOULS. My interpretation of the situation you describe is that the jersey was not removed in an unsporting manner, it was removed for the reasons described in 3-3-6 which clearly states that this situation can be corrected by the end of a requested time-out. I would think that one avenue of correction would be to remove and replace the jersey. I do not believe that the spirit of the rule is to apply it to the situation you describe in the way you describe.

Just my opinion.

You might want to read the interpretation from the NFHS.

SITUATION 5: A1 is directed to leave the game with a blood-saturated jersey. While at the team bench area, he/she removes the jersey and changes into a clean, spare jersey. RULING: A1 is assessed a technical foul. Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball for a division line throw-in. COMMENT: The uniform rule is intended to be applied in all situations. It is not unreasonable to expect team members to leave the playing area to change uniforms. (3-4-15; 10-4-1h)

I don't like it either, but it is a technical foul.

To Biz, I would suggest that you let the assignor know. It's not going to do you any good (and you know this from being a referee) to get into an argument on the court over the issue.

kooz · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 21, 2005, 02:18pm

Our board has been instructed that the player must leave the bench area, go to the locker room, hall, just outside the firedoors and change their shirt for whatever reason, otherwise it's a T. We had some players with white T's under their red jerseys on Friday and when we told them they had to come off, we instructed them to hightail it to the locker room to do it.

Blind & lovin' it · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 21, 2005, 02:19pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Rick82358
As an official I hate to see coaches and officials who do not know the rules.
As a coach do not *****, ask questions, treat the official the way you wish to be treated as a Ref. it will go a long way, NEVER use the I am a referee quote!

As far as the situation you mention with the jersey I do not have an NFHS book with me but in my opion the official was correct since the player was instructed by the offical to make the change and if the appropriate time out was taken to buy his way into the game, then I would have told you the same thing.

I do not deal enough with high school to know that it differs, but in a collegiate game this would never be an issue and it really shouldn't be in yours.
If you start trying to pull out little technicalities on an official they might just pull out something you might not be aware of, or big TECHNICALITY on you or your head coach for openly questioning their decisions?

For the record, I believe he may be refering to the new rule of a player having to leave the court area to remove/change their jersey.

biz · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 21, 2005, 02:21pm

Sorry Badger. I admittedly did not go back and review the rule I cited. I used the cite from the 2005-2006 NFHS Rules Changes which also under the comments section states:

JERSEYS/PANTS/SKIRTS PROHIBITED FROM BEING REMOVED(3-4-15, 10-3-7h, 10-4-1i)

..."the rule is intended to be applied in all situations - even when a player must change uniforms due to blood or other unusual circumstances. It is not unreasonable to expect team members to go to their locker rooms to change their jerseys."

The "special circumstance" excuse is completely invalid though when NFHS has said there are no "special circumstances."

I would NEVER use the "I'M A REF..." line, you're right that is asking for trouble.

JRutledge · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 21, 2005, 02:28pm

What was the interpretation from your state? It is possible that your state organization had other policies that trumped this rule. We were told how to handle this. It might not have been the same thing they told you.

Peace

biz · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 21, 2005, 02:36pm

I agree with the suggestion of going to the assignor, but how would you suggest I or my Head Coach broach the subject of repeated misapplication of the rules by multiple officials.

In our game last Friday the Team Control foul was misinterpreted by two different officials. The official when I (politely) asked him about it during a time-out told me that Team Control does not exist during a loose-ball, interrupted dribble situation!!!!! The play was text book...B1 bats ball away from A1 and A1 fouls B1 during scramble for ball. Team B is in bonus. The officials ruled B1 would get to shoot the bonus 1-and-1!!!

rainmaker · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 21, 2005, 02:39pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Badger05
You may want to give the ol' rulebook a little review yourself. The rule you cite references rule 10-3-7h and 10-3-1h which are descriptions of UNSPORTING FOULS. My interpretation of the situation you describe is that the jersey was not removed in an unsporting manner, it was removed for the reasons described in 3-3-6 which clearly states that this situation can be corrected by the end of a requested time-out. I would think that one avenue of correction would be to remove and replace the jersey. I do not believe that the spirit of the rule is to apply it to the situation you describe in the way you describe.

Just my opinion.

Sorry, Badger, that's not what the NFHS says. Read their comments on the rule changes on their website, or in the rule book, and you'll find that they want it enforced for all situations. I'd personally rather not have to deal with it, but it's there in print and there's no judgment involved.

rainmaker · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 21, 2005, 02:42pm

Quote:

Originally posted by biz
I agree with the suggestion of going to the assignor, but how would you suggest I or my Head Coach broach the subject of repeated misapplication of the rules by multiple officials.

In our game last Friday the Team Control foul was misinterpreted by two different officials. The official when I (politely) asked him about it during a time-out told me that Team Control does not exist during a loose-ball, interrupted dribble situation!!!!! The play was text book...B1 bats ball away from A1 and A1 fouls B1 during scramble for ball. Team B is in bonus. The officials ruled B1 would get to shoot the bonus 1-and-1!!!

Not much you can do but keep riding the assignor. Also, it might get through to the official if you speak to them about a rule when the correction actually hurts your team, not just when it would be in your favor. If it's only the rule changes that are a problem, you're probably going to have to wait a year or two to get it resolved, and then there'll be something else to work on.

biz · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 21, 2005, 02:42pm

JRut...I'm in MA...these were IAABO officials which would use the IAABO interpretation. I am also an IAABO official and I received no other interpretation of the rule at my interpretation meeting.

WhistlesAndStripes · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 21, 2005, 02:46pm

Quote:

Originally posted by biz
I agree with the suggestion of going to the assignor, but how would you suggest I or my Head Coach broach the subject of repeated misapplication of the rules by multiple officials.

Start making a tape. Send it to the association at the end of the season with a letter of termination and let them know you have made other arrangements for next year.