Grabbing Jerseys

[tomegun]

This is an intentional foul since a player will not accidentally grab a fist full of jersey.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by tomegun
This is an intentional foul since a player will not accidentally grab a fist full of jersey.

While I agree that it could be an intentional foul, I think you'd get get into a lot of trouble if you applied this metric (not accidental) to fouls. There are many fouls where players deliberately give a player driving to the basket a push on the hip when they're about to get beat or when a post player shoves the opponent when they get sealed off. Players deliberately stick a knee out on a screen in hopes that you will not see it and that it will slow down the defender. A grab of a jersey to slow down a player is no different than these.

The only time I'd consider it an intentional foul on a jersey grab is when the fouled player is absolutely on an otherwise uncontestable path to a certain score.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Nov 9th, 2005 at 07:46 PM]

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by IREFU2
This could be and is in my opinion an intentional foul. There is no ligitimate play for the ball and of course if its off the ball, its a no brainer.

I agree that it certainly could be an intentional foul. The problem for the coach is not that officials are calling it incorrectly. The problem is that they're not seeing it at all so there's no call at all.

Tough spot for coach and players alike.

[johnny1784]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

While I agree that it could be an intentional foul, I think you'd get get into a lot of trouble if you applied this metric (not accidental) to fouls. There are many fouls where players deliberately give a player driving to the basket a push on the hip when they're about to get beat or when a post player shoves the opponent when they get sealed off. Players deliberately stick a knee out on a screen in hopes that you will not see it and that it will slow down the defender. A grab of a jersey to slow down a player is no different than these.

The only time I'd consider it an intentional foul on a jersey grab is when the fouled player is absolutely on an otherwise uncontestable path to a certain score.


[Edited by Camron Rust on Nov 9th, 2005 at 07:46 PM]

An intentional foul should be called. The calling official should not be scared or intimidated from not making this correct call and should have the courage to make this call and not based on ones own incorrect interpretation of the NFHS Rules.

[tomegun]

Thank you Johnny! Understanding that this isn't something you want to have in the last two minutes, this is an intentional act. Just all the talk about an intentional being an intentional regardless of severity. I would be glad to entertain the thought of this not being an intentional, other than not "putting it into the game" at the end of a game.
In my experience, this is the sort of thing that can get an official hired.

[johnny1784]

Originally posted by tomegun
Thank you Johnny! Understanding that this isn't something you want to have in the last two minutes, this is an intentional act. Just all the talk about an intentional being an intentional regardless of severity. I would be glad to entertain the thought of this not being an intentional, other than not "putting it into the game" at the end of a game.
In my experience, this is the sort of thing that can get an official hired.

I do not understand your quote.

All officials should make this call no matter when the intentional foul occurs, even during the last 2 minutes.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by johnny1784

An intentional foul should be called. The calling official should not be scared or intimidated from not making this correct call and should have the courage to make this call and not based on ones own incorrect interpretation of the NFHS Rules.

It's not about being scared or intimidated. It's a matter of the act matching the intentional foul rule or not. If you were to apply the intentional foul rule as you suggest, you'd have 10-20 intentional fouls per game. Just because they contact another player deliberately does not make it an intentional foul. There is more to it than that. Grabbing a jersey is not always a intentional foul. It depends on the context.

Fast break, 1v1, behind and getting beat, B1 grabs the jersey of A1...intentional foul every time.

Half court set, A1 dribbling out top. A2 cuts and has his jersey grabbed by B2 in the opposite corner. A2's cut was not such that it was an open path to the basket that would have put him wide open for an easy alley oop. There was no obvious advantageous position. B2 was just trying to keep A2 from getting the ball. Common foul.

[cdaref]

Or maybe just a good old fashioned Illegal Use of the Hands or Holding from 10-6-1:

"The use of hands on an opponent **in any way** that inhibits the freedom of movement of the opponent ... is not legal." Grabbing the jersey is to inhibit freedom of movement.

I like the intentional on the "stop the fast break pull the jersey from behind" situation.

If it is egregious you could go for an unsporting T per 10-3-7. There is a good argument that there is nothing about basketball that allows jersey grabbing, so by definition its occurence would be unsporting.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by cdaref

If it is egregious you could go for an unsporting T per 10-3-7. There is a good argument that there is nothing about basketball that allows jersey grabbing, so by definition its occurence would be unsporting.

It would be egregiously wrong if you called jersey grabbing a "T". By rule- R4-19-5(b), you can't have a live ball technical foul that involves contact.

[cdaref]

I agree. It would have to be egregious conduct. Dead ball. Something short of a fight. I dont know. I'm sure we could conjure up a situation where there could be a T.

But what I was trying to say is I think holding or intentional fouls take care of the situation. I believe a prior post suggested a T. That seems like the last resort to me.

[cdaref]

[maybe i misread the post. i think it was crazy voyager. i thought his "unsporting" reference was to a T, but it doesnt look like his post actually says that.]

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by tomegun
This is an intentional foul since a player will not accidentally grab a fist full of jersey.

Look who showed up again just in time for the season!

BTW, I agree that grabbing the shirt is an intentional foul ANYTIME during the game ANYWHERE on the court.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

Look who showed up again just in time for the season!

Give him a break. He was busy with camps all summer.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Give him a break. He was busy with camps all summer.

By now he ought to be working about seven different conferences including the Big East and ACC. Anything less and I'd be disappointed.

[crazy voyager]

[maybe i misread the post. i think it was crazy voyager. i thought his "unsporting" reference was to a T, but it doesnt look like his post actually says that.]

Remember, I'm a FIBA ref, you are probably confused by the rule refrences, you can PM me with more exact info and I'll sort it out for you