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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 25, 2005, 01:01pm
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All the coach has to tell me in this situation is "he's hurt."
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 25, 2005, 01:08pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ref in PA
Could not a coach strike a name in the scorebook? It would cost him a T but now that number is not in the book.
Adding a number costs a "T", but deducting a number shows no penalty.
Why would anyone penalize an entire team because a coach wants to take care of bidness?
mick
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 25, 2005, 01:13pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Quote:
Originally posted by Ref in PA
Could not a coach strike a name in the scorebook? It would cost him a T but now that number is not in the book.
Adding a number costs a "T", but deducting a number shows no penalty.
Why would anyone penalize an entire team because a coach wants to take care of bidness?
mick
Anyone ever play 5 on 4? It's no fun for anyone. Boring for the team with 5 and frustrating for the team with 4. You're penalizing all 9 remaining kids if you let the teams play 5 on 4.... If the coach says the kid is hurt, then he can pull it off. Hopefully the coach is more honest than that and hopefully he can figure out how to discipline the one kid without ruining the fun for the rest of his team (and the other team).

Z
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 25, 2005, 01:49pm
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Arrow

Quote:
Originally posted by zebraman
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Quote:
Originally posted by Ref in PA
Could not a coach strike a name in the scorebook? It would cost him a T but now that number is not in the book.
Adding a number costs a "T", but deducting a number shows no penalty.
Why would anyone penalize an entire team because a coach wants to take care of bidness?
mick
Anyone ever play 5 on 4? It's no fun for anyone. Boring for the team with 5 and frustrating for the team with 4. You're penalizing all 9 remaining kids if you let the teams play 5 on 4.... If the coach says the kid is hurt, then he can pull it off. Hopefully the coach is more honest than that and hopefully he can figure out how to discipline the one kid without ruining the fun for the rest of his team (and the other team).

Z
Z,
I am sure that makes sense to you.
mick
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 25, 2005, 02:34pm
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Now that it's become more clear as to why coach don't want him in there, I think it's pretty easy to fix. Send the kid to the locker room, or sit him on the row behind the bench. The "he's hurt" excuse works for me as well. If he's available, he's gotta be in there if he's the 5th man. But if he ain't on the bench, we go 5 on 4.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 25, 2005, 02:58pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Whistles & Stripes
Now that it's become more clear as to why coach don't want him in there, I think it's pretty easy to fix. Send the kid to the locker room, or sit him on the row behind the bench. The "he's hurt" excuse works for me as well. If he's available, he's gotta be in there if he's the 5th man. But if he ain't on the bench, we go 5 on 4.
I prefer to deal with the truth, not "Fairy Tails".
If a coach wants his only available player to sit, I do not have to instruct/advise/encourage him to lie to me.

I get the same result of no "T", and no lie, by just saying, "Fine."
mick

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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 25, 2005, 03:14pm
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While a coach may not DQ a player, I don't agree that a coach can't make one unavailable.

The (NF) rule reads, "...if it has no substitutes to replace disqualified or injured players..."

If a coach says a player is no longer available, he or she is no longer a "substitute(s) to replace" another player. A sustitute is not defined in rule 4, and there is no provision I'm aware of that requires someone listed on the scorebook to play or return to the game, even if they have already played.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 25, 2005, 03:24pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Texas Aggie
While a coach may not DQ a player, I don't agree that a coach can't make one unavailable.

The (NF) rule reads, "...if it has no substitutes to replace disqualified or injured players..."

If a coach says a player is no longer available, he or she is no longer a "substitute(s) to replace" another player. A sustitute is not defined in rule 4, and there is no provision I'm aware of that requires someone listed on the scorebook to play or return to the game, even if they have already played.
NFHS case book play 3.1.1. If a player is "available", you gotta put him/her in.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 25, 2005, 03:40pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by Texas Aggie
While a coach may not DQ a player, I don't agree that a coach can't make one unavailable.

The (NF) rule reads, "...if it has no substitutes to replace disqualified or injured players..."

If a coach says a player is no longer available, he or she is no longer a "substitute(s) to replace" another player. A sustitute is not defined in rule 4, and there is no provision I'm aware of that requires someone listed on the scorebook to play or return to the game, even if they have already played.
NFHS case book play 3.1.1. If a player is "available", you gotta put him/her in.
YU.P.!
Coach made that kid unavailable.
That's what happened; sure as Yankee pitchers in an open dome.
mick
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 25, 2005, 03:58pm
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3.1.1 doesn't apply. It says, "In a gesture of fair play." In other words, the coach is taking the player out STRICTLY because of the fact that the other team only has 4 remaining. I have had that situtation in a game and agree the way the casebook says it is the way it should be handled.

The book does not suggest a different situation, one that is the topic of this discussion, and I stand by what I stated: a coach can make a player unavailable any time he or she wants. There's no restrictions on that. If you will recall, the player was unavailable BEFORE the foul (or event) that DQed the 5th player. Its just that you (as a game official) may not have been aware of it.

I KNOW what you are reading and what you are thinking, and agree there is a fine line here. At best, this is one of those situations not SPECIFICALLY covered by the rules, so there is some discretion. The intent of the rule is to keep 5 players out on the court, even in situations where one team only has 4 or fewer available. The intent is not violated when a coach says a player is unavailable due to the fact that he or she will no longer play on that team (or even for that game).
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 25, 2005, 03:59pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by Texas Aggie
While a coach may not DQ a player, I don't agree that a coach can't make one unavailable.

The (NF) rule reads, "...if it has no substitutes to replace disqualified or injured players..."

If a coach says a player is no longer available, he or she is no longer a "substitute(s) to replace" another player. A sustitute is not defined in rule 4, and there is no provision I'm aware of that requires someone listed on the scorebook to play or return to the game, even if they have already played.
NFHS case book play 3.1.1. If a player is "available", you gotta put him/her in.
YU.P.!
Coach made that kid unavailable.
That's what happened; sure as Yankee pitchers in an open dome.
mick
Yeah, I was just responding to the point made that there was no provision in the rules to make a substitute or an eligible player on the bench go into the game. There is.

The question of whether a substitute is "available" or not is a whole 'nother matter though. Personally, I'd probably handle this type of situation exactly the way you are suggesting.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 25, 2005, 04:10pm
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Only Gene Hackman can get away with it in "Hoosiers."
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 25, 2005, 04:15pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by RoyalsCoach
Only Gene Hackman can get away with it in "Hoosiers."
Not really.
Coach made him *unavailable*.
Ref said , "Okay!"
Just like I and coach did last year.
mick
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 25, 2005, 04:35pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by Texas Aggie
While a coach may not DQ a player, I don't agree that a coach can't make one unavailable.

The (NF) rule reads, "...if it has no substitutes to replace disqualified or injured players..."

If a coach says a player is no longer available, he or she is no longer a "substitute(s) to replace" another player. A sustitute is not defined in rule 4, and there is no provision I'm aware of that requires someone listed on the scorebook to play or return to the game, even if they have already played.
NFHS case book play 3.1.1. If a player is "available", you gotta put him/her in.
But, what makes a player "available"? Who makes that determination? If I look at a player on the bench, and I think they look available, should I order them in the game, even though they're not eligible to play? For example, in grade school games in IL, the IESA (IL Elementary School Assoc.) has a limit on the total number of quarters a player can play in day (I believe it's 6 or 7). Usually they play two games, the 5th/6th grade game, then the 7th/8th grade game. Officials have no jurisdiction over who plays how many quarters; it's an issue between the schools and the IESA. But if a school plays their best player more quarters than allowed, that school could forfeit as a result. So, if a coach says a player is not available, even though, according to NFHS rules they are available (less than 5 fouls, not injured, etc.) should I order them into the game and force a forfeit for that school later on?

If a coach tells me the player is not available, who am I to argue?
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 25, 2005, 04:53pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
The question of whether a substitute is "available" or not is a whole 'nother matter though. Personally, I'd probably handle this type of situation exactly the way you are suggesting.
Oh.

I......guess.....I.....type.........slow.........

Never mind.
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