An actual rules question, for a change

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
[/B]

The fact that a player is allowed to be OOB in certain circumstances doesn't give him license to do whatever he wants while he's OOB. [/B][/QUOTE]Rules citation?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Sorry, I checked out for a while. But no, I didn't see this happen. The question arose from a thread over on McGriff's.

My opinion, now that a bunch of people have "weight" in, is that a player is never authorized to be OOB to go around a screen. The fact that a player is allowed to be OOB in certain circumstances doesn't give him license to do whatever he wants while he's OOB.

Any member of the team throwing in is authorized unconditionally to be OOB behind the endline during a throw-in after points are earned.

You'll need to supply a rule backing up your claim.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Junker
I'm with Bob on this. I would think that in 99% of the cases, you will be able to tell if the player is oob to recieve the pass or if they're oob getting around the screen. You can look to see if their hands are up and they're looking at the ball. I realize that we're opening ourselves up for questions by looking for the intent of the player, but that's part of the game in other areas as well. Kind of an official's judgement to me.

The problem with this will come when the person with possession of the ball sees what's happening, and fakes passing the ball to her teammate (to make it look good) just as you blow the whistle. Now you've got some explaining to do!

[Junker]

Why do you have to blow your whistle right away? Why not wait and see the play develop. If the player goes around the screen and becomes involved in the action, you know they gained an advatage and can call the violation. I really don't see this being that difficult of a judgement call, unless the interpretations decide it is entirely legal, in which case it will be legal and there will be no call.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Rules citation?

I don't think I really need a rules citation for that, do I? If A2 is legally OOB along the endline and is about to receive the ball from A1 who is also OOB, are you going to withhold the whistle when he excessively swings his elbows at B1 to make space to receive the ball?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

I don't think I really need a rules citation for that, do I? If A2 is legally OOB along the endline and is about to receive the ball from A1 who is also OOB, are you going to withhold the whistle when he excessively swings his elbows at B1 to make space to receive the ball?

No, if A1 needs to create space to recieve the ball I'll probably have a whistle on B1 for being OOB on the throw-in, which he is not allowed to do unconditionally by rule.

Even if B1 is not OOB, this rule states unconditionally that a player may not swing an elbow. IOW there are (or should be) no other considerations, we merely have to observe the swing of an elbow.

The rule we are discussing only penalizes players being OOB for an unauthorized purpose. IOW we must first ask ourselves "is he otherwise permitted to be OOB?".

In your play A3 is authorized to be OOB because he is permitted to do so by rule.

Now, if the rewritten rule did supercede the throw-in rule then no team mate would be allowed OOB with the player thowing the ball in. The rule as presented does say we are to whistle the violation immeditely. Which means as soon as you see it which means as soon as A3 steps OOB he's violated. Regardless of the throw-in rules.

[truerookie]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
This is a discussion that started on another website. I'm looking for some input here. I already know JR's opinion, so hold off for a while, JR.

B1 scores. While A1 is holding the ball OOB for the endline throw-in, A2 sets a screen near the endline. A3 runs OOB along the endline to go around the screen and re-enters the court inbounds. Is this a violation under new rule 9-3-2? Or is it legal b/c it's an endline throw-in and any teammate of the thrower can be OOB?

Yes, it is not unreasonable for the the offensive team to set screen's where other teammates can go around them legally. The screen's should be set high enough to prevent a teammate from going OOB.

[truerookie]

As I see it, during the normal course of a game if a player goes OOB unauthorized I am going to call a violation. I think the intent and focus here is, we have enough space between the boundary lines on the court for players to make adjustments and stay inbounds.

[mick]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

If you agree that the thrower's teammates are authorized to leave the court during a non-spot throw-in, then how does that fit in with your other statement "I gather the intent of the rule is to merely keep the players between the lines so as to avoid the dreaded, unintented advantage/disadvantage.."?

The teammates of the throwers don't have to keep between the lines on a non-spot throw-in. They can be legally OOB until the throw-in ends. That's when R10-3-3 kicks in.

That's my point.

JR,
Well, of course, a player may legally go out of bounds to gain that intended legal right to receive and make an endline pass.
The new rule certainly *doesn't disallow* intended advantages. I figgered that went without saying.
mick

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

I don't think I really need a rules citation for that, do I?

Yup, if you wanna supersede R's 9-2-2, 9-2-12 & 7-5-7 , you sureasheck are gonna need some rules citations to do so. There aren't any rules that I know of that sez that any teammate of the thrower during a non-spot throw-in can't go in and outa bounds as many times as he wants, or can't run up and down the same endline OOB as many times as he wants either. There are rules governing their behavior when it comes to taunting, fouling, and other things, but I'm not aware of any rule that sez they can't simply just be OOB at any time during the throw-in.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by mick

JR,
Well, of course, a player may legally go out of bounds to gain that intended legal right to receive and make an endline pass.
The new rule certainly *doesn't disallow* intended advantages. I figgered that went without saying.
mick

Thx for the clarification, Mick. I was a-misunderstanding you.

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
You'll need to supply a rule backing up your claim.

Comments on the 2005-06 Rules Revisions, Release Date: 5/10/05, NFHS website.

Remember, we aren't talking about not allowing anyone to no longer go OOB, but just what consitutes "unauthorized". Obviously, any member of the throw-in team is authorized to be OOB during a throw-in after a basket. However, this specific example of going around a screen is mentioned as unauthorized. Neither example says the other one doesn't apply. So, I guess I can also ask: what rule do you use to back up allowing a player to go OOB to avoid the screen?

Even though there have been multiple rules mentioned, the only one that applies to teammates being OOB on a throw-in is 7-5-7. The context of this rule is the throw-in after a made basket, and what is allowed. The purpose is to allow teammate(s) to be OOB to receive a pass (or fake receiving a pass, or jump up and down and yelling, "throw it here!!", whatever). However, using OOB to get around a screen is also specifically disallowed. The two are not mutually exclusive; they can both be in effect. Granted, they need to figure out how you call it if you can't determine the intent of the player - avoiding the screen or completing the throw-in play.

I guess what it boils down to realistically, unless it's obvious the player is just avoiding the screen, I will assume it's part of the OOB throw-in play.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Even if B1 is not OOB, this rule states unconditionally that a player may not swing an elbow. IOW there are (or should be) no other considerations, we merely have to observe the swing of an elbow.

Sorry, you (and also JR in his post above) missed my point. I was addressing only and specifically the fact that JR asked for a rules citation to back up my assertion that the player OOB can't do just anything he wants, simply b/c he's allowed to be in that situation. I don't need a citation to back up that assertion. There are restrictions on such a player, even tho they don't fall under the throw-in rules. That was my only point. He can't do just anything. What we're discussing is whether going around a screen falls under those restrictions or not.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by M&M Guy

Even though there have been multiple rules mentioned, the only one that applies to teammates being OOB on a throw-in is 7-5-7.

How about R9-2-12? That one sez that no teammate of the thrower can legally be OOB during a designated-spot throw-in. If the FED had wanted this rule to apply to all throw-ins, they would have removed "designated-spot" from the language. They didn't. Ergo, it's legal for all teammates of the thrower to be OOB after a non-designated spot throw-in begins.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by M&M Guy
what consitutes "unauthorized".

This is exactly right. The player is authorized to be OOB. The player is not authorized to go OOB to utilize a screen.

Which authorization supersedes?