what's the call?

[eastcoastref]

I've never seen something like this happen, but for some reason it popped into my head. It's unlikely to happen, but certainly possible. I'm wondering what the correct call would be.

Here goes:

A1 drives toward the basket while B1 rushes in from opposite side of the floor. A1 misses his layup, but the shot is quickly tipped in by A2. Just after the tip-in, but before A1 reaches the floor, B1 barrels into A1, committing a foul.

What would the proper call be? I've already asked 3-4 people and have gotten 3-4 different answers.

[Jurassic Referee]

The ball is dead as soon as it goes through the basket after the tip-in. A1 is NOT an airborne shooter. A2 was the shooter. You ignore the foul unless you think the contact was intentional or flagrant, which doesn't sound like it was from your description. Rule 4-19-1NOTE.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

A1 is NOT an airborne shooter.

As far as I can tell the ncaa & the fed thinks he is under 4-1.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

As far as I can tell the ncaa & the fed thinks he is under 4-1.

What's your call if another B player also fouled A2 while he was tipping the ball in then? Gonna put both A1 and A2 on the line? Gonna also give A1 two(2) FT's because his shot didn't go in?

[BLydic]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

As far as I can tell the ncaa & the fed thinks he is under 4-1.

An airborne shooter until one foot NCAA, two feet Fed returns to the floor ... is this correct?

[eastcoastref]

I actually thought, if going strictly by the rulebook, that the foul on B1 would be technical in nature since it occurs after the ball is dead, since the ball becomes dead upon going into the basket. Thus, you would give team A two shots and the ball.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

What's your call if another B player also fouled A2 while he was tipping the ball in then? Gonna put both A1 and A2 on the line? Gonna also give A1 two(2) FT's because his shot didn't go in?

We aint talking about what my call or anybody's call might be.

We're talking about how the rules define airborne shooter.

eastcoastref: this play happens much more ofen than you might think - it's not unusual to have more than 1 offensive player in the air with lots of contact on a multiple rebound/putback/miss. Unless B1 caused A1 to miss then let his contact go 99.999% of the time. And B1 had better be clearly headhunting if you do call something.

[Mark Dexter]

Yikes.

The obvious call is that you don't call a foul on B1 unless it's some pretty bad contact.

That said, a hypothetical. A1 goes up for a shot, gets fouled by B1, then A2 goes up for the rebound and gets fouled by B2. In both cases, the fouls occur before the shooter returns to the floor, and both shots miss.

By common sense, I think I may *happen* to judge that A1 was not in his/her shooting motion. By rule, however, this would be a false multiple foul - 2 shots for A1, then 2 shots for A2.

[eastcoastref]

I don't understand how you could let the contact go if it was significant contact.

If B1 is coming from the side at a high rate of speed and clearly goes for the blocked shot (therefore not flagrantly going after A1) but then barrels into A1 after the shot is released so that A1 goes flying into the second row of the bleachers, you're trying to tell me you're going to let that contact go, simply because A2 tipped in the missed shot?

What happened to old adage of protecting the shooter? Are we supposed to stop protecting him because his teammate got the rebound of his miss?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Yikes.

The obvious call is that you don't call a foul on B1 unless it's some pretty bad contact.

That said, a hypothetical. A1 goes up for a shot, gets fouled by B1, then A2 goes up for the rebound and gets fouled by B2. In both cases, the fouls occur before the shooter returns to the floor, and both shots miss.

By common sense, I think I may *happen* to judge that A1 was not in his/her shooting motion. By rule, however, this would be a false multiple foul - 2 shots for A1, then 2 shots for A2.

2 fouls??

I don't think so.

You can send A1 to the line, A2 to the line, or no one to the line.

But no way send both.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

2 fouls??

I don't think so.

You can send A1 to the line, A2 to the line, or no one to the line.

But no way send both.

Would I send both? No in 99.9999995% of cases.

Could I send both? Absolutely.



A1 shoots - try has started, ball is live.

B1 fouls A1 before A1 comes down to the ground - ball is still live (foul on defense during a shot - 6-7 Exception), the try has not ended (4-40-4).

A2 taps the ball - considered the same as a try, this does not end A1's try, unless the first shot was determined to be "certain(ly) unsuccessful."

B2 fouls A2 - ball is still live, try has not ended.


Two fouls on two shooters equals two shots for each.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

Would I send both? No in 99.9999995% of cases.

Could I send both? Absolutely.



A1 shoots - try has started, ball is live.

B1 fouls A1 before A1 comes down to the ground - ball is still live (foul on defense during a shot - 6-7 Exception), the try has not ended (4-40-4).

A2 taps the ball - considered the same as a try, this does not end A1's try, unless the first shot was determined to be "certain(ly) unsuccessful."

It seems to me the only way A2 can tip in a rebound that is *not* "certain(ly) unsuccessful" would result in offensive BI.

Well, in 99.9999995% of cases at least.

Anyways...we agree you *could* call it this way. Not sure you would want to though, even .0000005% of the time.

[Jurassic Referee]

[Ref in PA]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter


A2 taps the ball - considered the same as a try, this does not end A1's try, unless the first shot was determined to be "certain(ly) unsuccessful."

[/B]

Whoa there partner. Once A2 touches the ball, A1's try has ended. You can't have two active shots going on at the same time. Does that mean you can't have two airborn shooters at the same time? no. The tap by A2 could be a violation, a new try, a bat of a loose ball, etc.

A1 must have some serious hang time to shoot a ball, have it miss, have A2 rebound (without a BI/GT violation) and make a shot, then have B1 foul A1 before returning to the floor.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Just stirrin' the pot a bit is all...