Free Throw Violation

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

I'm tending to agree with your interpretation here, Nevada (although I'd lean heavily toward calling disconcertion in these type situations), however, I want to pose a hypothetical question.

A1 is shooting FT's, and B1 is along the lane line. B1 is also (for some odd reason) a world champion gymnast. B1 plants his hands in the lane, moves his body forward, and does a horizontal handstand (supporting his body horizontally) with his feet above the marked lane space (not penetrating the plane).

If there were no prohibition for disconcertion, would you call this a violation?

Too funny!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker
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Thanks, 1-5-2. I am lazy. It makes my point. Players are not to be backing up out of the stall. And certainly not to be moving up to the starting gate, or getting up off their haunches, while the shooter is shooting. That's disconcerting . . .

Having 1st class intuition (a learned characteristic), no, I don't call disconcertion of a player standing 1 small step back and not moving. Doing that, standing back a step, stock still, is kinda rare, wouldn't yah say. Unless you're part of a post-shot pick play.

Finally, "A player can sit facing the sideline if he wants, as long as he's not doing anything else that might be disconcerting to the FT shooter." Doing what you describe is inherently disconcerting, and will get the floor dangerously wet in some cases.

Well, all I can really say to all that is....OmiGod.

[M&M Guy]

Ok, my face is all red. Have I been doing it wrong all these years? I understand all the issues regarding who's in which space, the size of each space, arms spread out in front of the other player (and all the associated "swimming" motions, etc.), and so on. I've known players can lean into the lane, but in a situation where a player leans too far, loses balance and touches the floor with their hand in the lane, I have always called the violation, and I have always seen that violation called. Am I responsible for perpetuating one of those basketball "myths"? You know, the myth about the violation actually being "leaving the space too early" as opposed to "entering the lane too early". I know I am going to have a tough time explaining to the other coach why I didn't wave off the made free throw when one of the shooter's teammates had both their hands on the floor in the lane, while of course their feet were comfortably still within that lane space.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

I'm tending to agree with your interpretation here, Nevada (although I'd lean heavily toward calling disconcertion in these type situations), however, I want to pose a hypothetical question.

A1 is shooting FT's, and B1 is along the lane line. B1 is also (for some odd reason) a world champion gymnast. B1 plants his hands in the lane, moves his body forward, and does a horizontal handstand (supporting his body horizontally) with his feet above the marked lane space (not penetrating the plane).

If there were no prohibition for disconcertion, would you call this a violation?

ROTFLMAO!!

I would hypothetically be inclined to applaud his athletic prowess.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker

Finally, "A player can sit facing the sideline if he wants, as long as he's not doing anything else that might be disconcerting to the FT shooter."

Doing what you describe is inherently disconcerting, and will get the floor dangerously wet in some cases.

Jeff,
JR and I have gone to great lengths and supplied specific rule citations in an effort to let you know what exactly is and what is not legal during FTs. If you choose to ignore our advice that is up to you.

However, while in my opinion the action described above is not a FT violation, nor is it inherently disconcerting to the FT shooter, I think that you have a good case for disallowing it if you approach it as a safety issue.

I don't believe that the floor getting wet is weighty enough to win the case, but contending that the player is positioning himself in such a way that he is quite likely to be stepped on, which both puts himself in danger and poses a danger to the player who will step on him while looking up at the ball while attempting to rebound (e.g. turned ankle), gives you good reason to invoke the NFHS principle on player safety.

So my advice to you is that if you tell a player that he can't sit, then say it is a safety issue. The NFHS has stated many times that player safety is one of their top priorities.

Best wishes.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
[/B]

However, while in my opinion the action described above is not a FT violation, nor is it inherently disconcerting to the FT shooter, I think that you have a good case for disallowing it if you approach it as a safety issue.

[/B][/QUOTE]Sitting on the floor is unsafe?

Why? Do you think he'll fall off?

Lah me!

Just let me know when you guys are gonna call that one. I wanna sell tickets.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

However, while in my opinion the action described above is not a FT violation, nor is it inherently disconcerting to the FT shooter, I think that you have a good case for disallowing it if you approach it as a safety issue.

[/B]

Sitting on the floor is unsafe?

Why? Do you think he'll fall off?

Lah me!

Just let me know when you guys are gonna call that one. I wanna sell tickets. [/B][/QUOTE]

Doing what you describe is inherently disconcerting, and will get the floor dangerously wet in some cases.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker

Sitting on the floor is unsafe?

Why? Do you think he'll fall off?

Lah me!

Just let me know when you guys are gonna call that one. I wanna sell tickets. [/B]

Doing what you describe is inherently disconcerting, and will get the floor dangerously wet in some cases.
[/B][/QUOTE]WOW! Disconcerting and dangerous?

If I were you, I'd call a "T" on that play!

If I were me, I wouldn't call anything. Ever.

[BiG_UNiT_32]

*i dont think that there is a rule against leaning in "too far"...but i dont know*

[M&M Guy]

Ok, sorry to bring this up again, but I really am confused about 9-1-9. I understand the part about the feet of the player along the lane cannot be "beyond the vertical plane of the outside edge of any lane boundary, etc." This is to allow for players leaning in, but still being considered in their lane space. But, in the extreme and unlikely example of, say a player doing push-ups in the lane - as long as their feet are within their lane space, even though their hands are in the middle of the lane, surely you aren't saying that's legal? (If you clear this up for me I promise I won't call you Shirley anymore.) Just to eliminate the "disconcertion" possibility, let's say it's a teammate of the freethrower, and the free throw is made. Have I been missing something all these years? Or is it just because it's Monday and I'm having a brain fart not figuring out the answer...

[BLydic]

Originally posted by M&M Guy
Have I been missing something all these years?

No, you haven't been missing anything ... What is the basis for your lane violation call, 9-1-6?

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by M&M Guy
But, in the extreme and unlikely example of, say a player doing push-ups in the lane - as long as their feet are within their lane space, even though their hands are in the middle of the lane...

Just to eliminate the "disconcertion" possibility, let's say it's a teammate of the freethrower, and the free throw is made.

Have I been missing something all these years? ...

If you believe that the teammate hasn't left his marked lane space, then there is no violation to call.

There is a pretty strong case to be made that a foot must be out of the space to constitute leaving, since the rules specifically restrict the feet.

Don't worry, it's probably not the only thing you've been missing.

I just enjoy finding loopholes in the rules. This seems to be one of them. The NFHS will probably issue an interp to close this one and ruin my fun.

They did that with the automatic FT violation for a team which only has one player remaining and can't fill both bottom spots a year or so ago. I had cooked up a way for the team that was behind to prevent losing by continually missing the FT. A violation would have to be called without any time running off the clock on every try, thus the game would never end!

I still have my hopping on one foot play though. Picture a dribbler in the backcourt who begins to hop on one foot. This dribbler then hops into the frontcourt. After reaching the FT line, the player turns around and proceeds into the backcourt again. Since only one foot ever touched in the frontcourt, I hope you were still continuing your ten-second count!

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Don't worry, it's probably not the only thing you've been missing.

Don't I know it. I'm just trying to get the list down to under two pages, though.

Ok, I feel a little better that it's just a loophole in the way the rule is worded. But, somehow, this is going to added to my list of "Top 10 Things to Do During My Last Season of Refereeing":

#10 - Don't call the violation on the player doing push-ups in the lane. "But coach, his feet never left the lane space!"
#9 - Call the 10-sec. backcourt violation on that annoying hopping player driving to the lane for a layup.
#8 - Call the male coaches Prince and the female coaches Princess.
(Any suggestions on #7 thru #1?)

[Nevadaref]

#7 T your partner. Give each team one FT and then use the AP arrow to determine who gets the ball.
#6 Tell that complaining coach that he should be employing a 1-3-1 trapping defense and that they need to get #32 open on the left wing for a jumper. Follow it up by telling him that since he is officiating, you have decided to coach.
#5 Actually call a multiple foul.
#4 Call a blarge by YOURSELF. The signal for this is one hand behind your head, the other one goes on your hip. Otherwise known as the "I'm a little teapot" signal.
#3 Enforce the uniform rules listed in 3-4 to the letter.
T every violation.
#2 You take one coach's box and your partner takes the other. The two of you work the whole game from there, switching on every foul, of course. Tell the coaches that you have come to agree that they really can see everything perfectly from there, so clearly it must be the best location from which to officiate.
#1 On your way off the floor, give the winning coach a big hug and a kiss!

[M&M Guy]

ROTHFLMAO!

I'm a little (maybe too) intrigued by #7...can I try that out before my last season?...