Team Control Foul Signal Sequence

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Love this Game

BZ we all know on a player control foul no one shoots, but based on this new rule we will be shooting less free throws and wont have to call a foul and walk all the way down the other side of the court just to shoot. I dont like it as a player, I could really care less as an official it really helps us as far as we dont have to remember who the person who is to be shooting freethrows at the other end is anymore. We dont have to go the length of the court to administer a free throw. We just put it in play at the POI.

BZ well now i am speaking as a player not an official, I would not like this call based on the fact that A1 has the ball A2 set an illegal screen on B1 and B team is shooting 1 and 1. Especially near the end of the game and we are down 1.

But if B3 fouls A3 off ball and A is in the 1 and 1 they get to shoot.

In my last post I was talking more as a player not an official. Does this help you out now with what I was saying.

[Edited by Love this Game on Aug 1st, 2005 at 07:08 AM]

No, it doesn't.

Good defense has little to do with a TC foul, most fouls would be bad/sloppy offense...pushing off, illegal screens, etc...about the only TC foul generated by good defense is the pass and crash play.

So if a PC foul is not, not rewarding good defense, how is a TC foul doing it?

As for B fouling and A gettting bonus FTs, so what. That is the penalty for fouling while on defense. The penalty for fouling while in control of the ball, player or team, is loss of ball.

With a TC foul the officials will go to the other end, we just won't be shooting FTs.

POI has nothing to do with this situation.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Because at camp last year, I was involved in just such a game. Great game, one or two point game, with under 30 seconds to go. "Championship" game for the age group. To me, no big deal; but probably was important to the campers.

During the last time-out, a D1 assignor came onto the court to talk to the crew. Here is the one-sided conversation:

"This has been a great game and you guys have done a helluva job. Now, you see that tree over there? The one a quarter mile past the last cabin? If you call a foul now, it better be visible to the grandma who's sitting under that tree. Got it? Good."

Now, moving screens generally do not fall under that description, unless the kid gets down into a 3-point stance and flattens the defender. And that's not going to happen.

As long as the supervisor is suggesting that an obvious foul be not ignored, I'm fine with his statement. But if he's expecting me to ignore contact that's been called a foul during the entire game, then I guess it's plain to see why I'll never work D-1 ball.

I couldn't care less whether it's a one point game with 30 seconds left. Two years ago, I had a playoff game that went 4 overtimes. We called a foul on each team in the last 15 seconds of regulation. Both players missed the front end. In my last game of the season last year, a second ropund playoff game, we sent both teams to the line in the last 10 seconds.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Love this Game
I just dont like the ideal from a players stand point.

So you don't mind it when your team is penalized twice for one infraction?

You have the ball. You drive the lane and lay it in. But wait! The trail official whistled your teammate for an illegal screen. So your team loses possession of the ball plus we're going to give B1 two FTs because your team has 10 team fouls.

So you like being penalized twice?

[Love this Game]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

So you don't mind it when your team is penalized twice for one infraction?

You have the ball. You drive the lane and lay it in. But wait! The trail official whistled your teammate for an illegal screen. So your team loses possession of the ball plus we're going to give B1 two FTs because your team has 10 team fouls.

So you like being penalized twice?

But if my partner fouls him the other team deserves to shoot the foul shots.

What is the use of being in the bonus if it is not going to be applied.

Isnt this the same A1 shoots as ball is goin in B3 fouls A3 and A is shooting in the bonus. A1 shot goes in and then A3 shoots foul shots.

Isnt that the same thing.

Basketball; i usually dont agree with you but I do to the point of being told what to call. There is a European camp that comes to my town every year, and i officiate it. It is good money but i dont like it when the guy who is big overseas tells us who not to call certain fouls against. (like dont call hand check on him, he is our defensive star). that is crazy.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
As long as the supervisor is suggesting that an obvious foul be not ignored, I'm fine with his statement.

He was NOT suggesting that an obvious foul not be called. Rather, he was saying, if it's there call it, but it should be an obvious foul to get a whistle in that situation.

But if he's expecting me to ignore contact that's been called a foul during the entire game . . .

Again, I don't think that was the point at all.

[Love this Game]

As for B fouling and A gettting bonus FTs, so what. That is the penalty for fouling while on defense. The penalty for fouling while in control of the ball, player or team, is loss of ball.


***************************
I am ok with the player control, but player off ball commits a foul and we are in the bonus they shoul shoot.

Would you be ok with it if you were on that defensive team.

Not judging you BZ but did you play the game, not making a personal attack.

I did and still do and I dont like it not saying that I wont administer it.

If B2 fouls A2 while A1 has teh ball and A is in the bonus A2 would shoot. (correct) not only are they getting to keep the ball but they are getting to shoot if in the bonus.

But now if A2 fouls B2 while A1 has the ball all you do is give the ball to B (even if they were in the bonus) (correct).

I could really care less as an official becuase all i have to do is administer it. but look at it as a player who is really getting that advantage!!!

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Love this Game
I am ok with the player control, but player off ball commits a foul and we are in the bonus they shoul shoot.

Why? Why should it matter who is actually holding the ball? If I'm holding the ball and I commit a foul, no FTs. But if my teammate is holding the ball and I commit a foul, FTs. Why?

It's like that stupid pass/crash scenario. If you have a shot and crash, it's a PC, no FTs. Bit if you have a pass and then crash, it's 1-and-1. What sense does that make?

I think it's a good rule change, regardless of whether you play or officiate. Now everybody knows, if the foul is on the offense, then there are no FTs.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Love this Game

But if my partner fouls him the other team deserves to shoot the foul shots.

What is the use of being in the bonus if it is not going to be applied.

Isnt this the same A1 shoots as ball is goin in B3 fouls A3 and A is shooting in the bonus. A1 shot goes in and then A3 shoots foul shots.

Isnt that the same thing.

Uh, no, these plays are about as different as you can get. In BktBallRef's play, there is team control when the foul occurred and that would nullify a made shot. In your example, there is no team control with the shot in the air. The basket would count if it went in. Different rules apply entirely- always have and still do even with the new rule change.

Your example isn't applicable to a team control foul. It can't be when there is no team control involved. Apples and oranges iow.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Love this Game

As for B fouling and A gettting bonus FTs, so what. That is the penalty for fouling while on defense. The penalty for fouling while in control of the ball, player or team, is loss of ball.


***************************
I am ok with the player control, but player off ball commits a foul and we are in the bonus they shoul shoot.

Would you be ok with it if you were on that defensive team.

Not judging you BZ but did you play the game, not making a personal attack.

I did and still do and I dont like it not saying that I wont administer it.

If B2 fouls A2 while A1 has teh ball and A is in the bonus A2 would shoot. (correct) not only are they getting to keep the ball but they are getting to shoot if in the bonus.

But now if A2 fouls B2 while A1 has the ball all you do is give the ball to B (even if they were in the bonus) (correct).

I could really care less as an official becuase all i have to do is administer it. but look at it as a player who is really getting that advantage!!!

They are not keeping the ball, they are shooting FTs. If they miss the defense has a chance to get the ball.

You are making it sound like they shoot FTs and then get the ball back, and that is a big difference.

The offense is not gaining an advantage, the defense is not getting disadvantaged.

Look at it this way:

B is ahead by 1 with 10 seconds left, in the bonus, are crappy free throw shooters, but great ball handlers and passers. A3 commits a foul on B5...B's worst FT shooter...while A1 is dribbling the ball. Under the new rule it's B's ball for a throw-in, they have a chance to run the clock and possibly avoid getting fouled and win the game.

Under your preferred rule, B5 comes down and bricks the first of a 1 and 1 and A gets another shot to win the game.

Again where is the disadvantage for team B in this situation?

[Love this Game]

Originally posted by blindzebra

They are not keeping the ball, they are shooting FTs. If they miss the defense has a chance to get the ball.

You are making it sound like they shoot FTs and then get the ball back, and that is a big difference.

The offense is not gaining an advantage, the defense is not getting disadvantaged.

Look at it this way:

B is ahead by 1 with 10 seconds left, in the bonus, are crappy free throw shooters, but great ball handlers and passers. A3 commits a foul on B5...B's worst FT shooter...while A1 is dribbling the ball. Under the new rule it's B's ball for a throw-in, they have a chance to run the clock and possibly avoid getting fouled and win the game.

Under your preferred rule, B5 comes down and bricks the first of a 1 and 1 and A gets another shot to win the game.

Again where is the disadvantage for team B in this situation?

This is what I will do, as an official i will enforce the rules to the utmost. As a player I dont like it at all.

But you never answered did you ever play the game.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Love this Game

This is what I will do, as an official i will enforce the rules to the utmost. As a player I dont like it at all.

But you never answered did you ever play the game.

I did not answer because it has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion.

From my experience officials that try too hard to officiate from the player's perspective and interpret the rules with that in mind tend to make the worst officials.

[Love this Game]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by blindzebra

Originally posted by Love this Game

This is what I will do, as an official i will enforce the rules to the utmost. As a player I dont like it at all.

But you never answered did you ever play the game.

I did not answer because it has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion.

From my experience officials that try too hard to officiate from the player's perspective and interpret the rules with that in mind tend to make the worst officials.

[/QUOT

It does has somethign to do with the discussion, because I am looking at the rule as a player.

but when i put on my shirt yes some of my experience as a player comes in to play, but I am an official first and foremost and a good one.

i am not saying you or anyone in this board are good or bad because i dont know you at all.

all i am saying is this, if i was playing and i still do, i dont like the rule especailly someone who likes to play defense.

This is just a personal opinion.

And I think playing the game does help, it really helps when watching off ball. Just all my opinion.

No offense intended and I apologize if any was taken!!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Love this Game

This is what I will do, as an official i will enforce the rules to the utmost. As a player I dont like it at all.

But you never answered did you ever play the game. [/B]

I did not answer because it has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion.

From my experience officials that try too hard to officiate from the player's perspective and interpret the rules with that in mind tend to make the worst officials.

[/B][/QUOT

It does has somethign to do with the discussion, because I am looking at the rule as a player.

but when i put on my shirt yes some of my experience as a player comes in to play, but I am an official first and foremost and a good one.

i am not saying you or anyone in this board are good or bad because i dont know you at all.

all i am saying is this, if i was playing and i still do, i dont like the rule especailly someone who likes to play defense.

This is just a personal opinion.

And I think playing the game does help, it really helps when watching off ball. Just all my opinion.

No offense intended and I apologize if any was taken!! [/B][/QUOTE]I played the game. I refereed the game. For the record, I also don't agree with your take on this play at all. The rule is consistent now. It wasn't before.

[blindzebra]

LTG, you have yet to give anything to support your position that this rule is unfair to the defense.

Isn't the entire purpose of defense, from a player's point of view, to stop the other team from scoring and get the ball?

Does this rule in anyway interfere with that purpose?

As several posters have explained, how is a TC foul any different than a PC foul?

Why should which offensive player has the ball matter?

If anything it requires better defense to draw a PC foul, so why isn't that call more unfair?

This rule may come up so rarely that it is so, a non-issue. I have officated about 100 games this summer with TC fouls in the rules and we have called it 3 times with team B in the bonus. At least 1,500 to 2,000 foul calls and it was an issue THREE TIMES.

[Love this Game]

Originally posted by blindzebra
LTG, you have yet to give anything to support your position that this rule is unfair to the defense.

Isn't the entire purpose of defense, from a player's point of view, to stop the other team from scoring and get the ball?

Does this rule in anyway interfere with that purpose?

As several posters have explained, how is a TC foul any different than a PC foul?

Why should which offensive player has the ball matter?

If anything it requires better defense to draw a PC foul, so why isn't that call more unfair?

This rule may come up so rarely that it is so, a non-issue. I have officated about 100 games this summer with TC fouls in the rules and we have called it 3 times with team B in the bonus. At least 1,500 to 2,000 foul calls and it was an issue THREE TIMES.

A3 sets a screen on B1, B1 runs over A3, A3 shoots if in the bonus.

A3 sets a screen on B1, as B1 runs around A3 moves into B1 and knocks B1 down all B1 gets is the ball.

I am finished you all have a nice day and evening
But You are correct

[Edited by Love this Game on Aug 1st, 2005 at 07:45 PM]