Team Control Foul Signal Sequence

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Love this Game

A3 sets a screen on B1, B1 runs over A3, A3 shoots if in the bonus.

A3 sets a screen on B1, as B1 runs around A3 moves into B1 and knocks B1 down all B1 gets is the ball.

I am finished you all have a nice day and evening
But You are correct

[Edited by Love this Game on Aug 1st, 2005 at 07:45 PM]

A1 crashes into B1 while going up to shoot, B gets the ball no FTs.

A1 crashes into B1 just after releasing the try, B gets the ball no FTs.

A1 crashes into B1 just after passing to A2, why should this play be any different than the first two?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by blindzebra
A1 crashes into B1 while going up to shoot, B gets the ball no FTs.

A1 crashes into B1 just after releasing the try, B gets the ball no FTs.

A1 crashes into B1 just after passing to A2, why should this play be any different than the first two?

I tried to make this same point earlier, but didn't get a response. Good luck.

[refTN]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

I wonder what your assignor friend might have said if an obvious illegal screen allowed a well guarded A1 to get open enough & pop in an uncontested 10 footer for the game.

In any event, I still disagree that it couldn't happen and I disagree that I wouldn't call it when it does happen.

Sorry just got to read this post, and haven't read it all.

Breathe guys.

IMO we have two things to worry about in this situation:

1)did the offense set a legal screen in your opinion.
2)did the offensive player coming off the screen catch the ball.

If the screener set a screen illegaly in your opinion that's one of those two variables, but keep watching the play, does the player coming off the screen catch the ball. If not and it was an illegal screen, I say play on. If he does, this is where the foul has to be what my teachers refer to as a "HIGH CERTAINTY" call meaning that you have to have no doubt in your mind that this was an illegal screen and this player gained an advantage from it. That is what I think Chuck is saying by referring to the old lady.

I am just expressing what I was taught. I was also told to remember that unless it is part of the play, then let it go if at all possible.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by refTN

Sorry just got to read this post, and haven't read it all.

Breathe guys.

IMO we have two things to worry about in this situation:

Relax junior.

Chuck & I have known each other since you were playing middle school basketball instead of working it. We know what to worry about, thanks.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by refTN

[/B]

1) Breathe guys.

2)If he does, this is where the foul has to be what my teachers refer to as a "HIGH CERTAINTY" call meaning that you have to have no doubt in your mind that this was an illegal screen and this player gained an advantage from it. [/B][/QUOTE]1) Breathe guys? Breathe guys? Lah me!

2) A "HIGH CERTAINTY" call? Every call we make out there had better damn well be a "HIGH CERTAINTY" call. Fouls, violations, out-of-bounds-- don't matter. We aren't supposed to blow the whistle unless we're certain about why we're blowing it. No guessing allowed.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Love this Game

I think I did say it will be fewer foul shots, and for the other post before yours.

No, you said LESS foul shots. (I'm just filling in for Mr. Grammar Guy, who's vacationing on the Riviera this week. I wish I. M. Shirley Wright would come back. I miss her.)

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Love this Game

A3 sets a screen on B1, B1 runs over A3, A3 shoots if in the bonus.

A3 sets a screen on B1, as B1 runs around A3 moves into B1 and knocks B1 down all B1 gets is the ball.

I am finished you all have a nice day and evening
But You are correct

If, in your first example, A3 were to only get the ball every time, there'd never be any real penalty. The penalty is to change the balance of the situation to favor the offended team. Putting a player on the line favors the team. Giving the team the ball when they otherwise don't favors that team. Those in power have deemed that these penalties are of similar magnatude.

[refTN]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Breathe guys.

2)If he does, this is where the foul has to be what my teachers refer to as a "HIGH CERTAINTY" call meaning that you have to have no doubt in your mind that this was an illegal screen and this player gained an advantage from it. [/B]

1) Breathe guys? Breathe guys? Lah me!

2) A "HIGH CERTAINTY" call? Every call we make out there had better damn well be a "HIGH CERTAINTY" call. Fouls, violations, out-of-bounds-- don't matter. We aren't supposed to blow the whistle unless we're certain about why we're blowing it. No guessing allowed. [/B][/QUOTE]

Jurrassic I know you know this. You are just trying to be hard on me because I am young. "High Certainty" is terminology in officiating. You have CERTAINTY, HIGH CERTAINTY, 50/50 CALLS, FOOL THE REFEREE, RSBQ, and things of that sort.

I never suggested guessing, but you have to be more certain of a call at the end of a close game, than you do 3 minutes into the game.

Have you been certain every time you blew the whistle when it went OOB on your line?

Just asking the question and would like to hear the response?

Do you think a trip, elbow flick, or eye poke could be an educated guess call? Have you ever called either of the three without knowing with "High Certainty" that it happened?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by refTN

1) Breathe guys? Breathe guys? Lah me!

2) A "HIGH CERTAINTY" call? Every call we make out there had better damn well be a "HIGH CERTAINTY" call. Fouls, violations, out-of-bounds-- don't matter. We aren't supposed to blow the whistle unless we're certain about why we're blowing it. No guessing allowed. [/B]

Jurrassic I know you know this. You are just trying to be hard on me because I am young. "High Certainty" is terminology in officiating. You have CERTAINTY, HIGH CERTAINTY, 50/50 CALLS, FOOL THE REFEREE, RSBQ, and things of that sort.

I never suggested guessing, but you have to be more certain of a call at the end of a close game, than you do 3 minutes into the game.

Have you been certain every time you blew the whistle when it went OOB on your line?

Just asking the question and would like to hear the response?

Do you think a trip, elbow flick, or eye poke could be an educated guess call? Have you ever called either of the three without knowing with "High Certainty" that it happened? [/B][/QUOTE]Tn, I could care less about your age. I do care that you're using terminology that I don't think you really fully understand yet at your current level of experience. I also care if you hand out advice to other opfficials that I think is clearly wrong.

Coupla points.....feel free to ignore them....

1) You shouldn't be making any call out there unless you are absolutely certain of it. End of story. Any doubt, swallow the whistle. If I'm not certain about an OOB call on my line, then I'm going to my partner(s) to see if they can help- before I make the call.
2) Any type of foul call- trip, elbow flick, eye poke- is NEVER an educated guess. If you don't know for sure, then let it go. NEVER GUESS!!
3) It doesn't matter when a foul occurs- at the beginning or at the end of a game. You shouldn't be calling a foul anytime unless you are certain it actually is a foul.

[tomegun]

Originally posted by Love this Game
I love officiating off ball that is where all the action is.
[/B]

Huh? All the action?

[tomegun]

Dan, do you really know Chuck?

RefTn, you age has NOTHING to do with anything! Your experience does. I think Jurrasic is trying to tell you that you should experience some of the things you talk about. Saying what someone told you without experiencing it is a no no.
Also, every illegal screen doesn't have to result in the offensive player catching the ball. If you use absolutes on plays like this you WILL get surprised.

Chuck, are you saying that you would't call an obvious screen that everyone can see if it happens at the end of a game? I think it would depend on what kind and where this illegal action takes place. I wouldn't say I absolutely wouldn't call this. I understand what you are saying though.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by tomegun
Dan, do you really know Chuck?

Dan and Chuck are best buds, Tom. Here's some pictures of them from the last camp that they attended:

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Dan and Chuck are best buds, Tom. Here's some pictures of them from the last camp that they attended:

Pretty easy to tell which one is Chuck.

[refTN]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Jurrassic I know you know this. You are just trying to be hard on me because I am young. "High Certainty" is terminology in officiating. You have CERTAINTY, HIGH CERTAINTY, 50/50 CALLS, FOOL THE REFEREE, RSBQ, and things of that sort.

I never suggested guessing, but you have to be more certain of a call at the end of a close game, than you do 3 minutes into the game.

Have you been certain every time you blew the whistle when it went OOB on your line?

Just asking the question and would like to hear the response?

Do you think a trip, elbow flick, or eye poke could be an educated guess call? Have you ever called either of the three without knowing with "High Certainty" that it happened? [/B]

Tn, I could care less about your age. I do care that you're using terminology that I don't think you really fully understand yet at your current level of experience. I also care if you hand out advice to other opfficials that I think is clearly wrong.

Coupla points.....feel free to ignore them....

1) You shouldn't be making any call out there unless you are absolutely certain of it. End of story. Any doubt, swallow the whistle. If I'm not certain about an OOB call on my line, then I'm going to my partner(s) to see if they can help- before I make the call.
2) Any type of foul call- trip, elbow flick, eye poke- is NEVER an educated guess. If you don't know for sure, then let it go. NEVER GUESS!!
3) It doesn't matter when a foul occurs- at the beginning or at the end of a game. You shouldn't be calling a foul anytime unless you are certain it actually is a foul. [/B][/QUOTE]

Ok I just wanted to see your outlook on this. I have experienced alot of these situations, believe it or not. Most all the thoughts that come from my head to these posts were taught and drilled into my brain. I believe I do understand the terminology that I use.

I do this for a living. I have no other job or anything. All I do on days that I am not reffing is reading NCAA and NFHS rulebooks, terminology, tapes, and this forum. Thanks to you guys I have been able to throw out some misconceptions and you guys even got me doubting my mentor sometimes, but that is what I love about this forum. You guys are great even though you never agree with me and say it is because of my "lack of experience" and that is ok because I understand you have to be around a while before you gain acceptance. I can live with that.

I do hope that before my 1000th post that me and someone on this post agree with something that I have said. Maybe I will have my 7th year in by then and can have some kind of experience.

Like I said, what I wrote earlier and what I write in the future is all teaching. I don't believe in learning by yourself and on your own when it comes to officiating. You have to have great teachers, instructors, mentors to do well and be good at this profession. I personally feel I have those.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Tn, I could care less about your age. I do care that you're using terminology that I don't think you really fully understand yet at your current level of experience. I also care if you hand out advice to other opfficials that I think is clearly wrong.

Coupla points.....feel free to ignore them....

1) You shouldn't be making any call out there unless you are absolutely certain of it. End of story. Any doubt, swallow the whistle. If I'm not certain about an OOB call on my line, then I'm going to my partner(s) to see if they can help- before I make the call.
2) Any type of foul call- trip, elbow flick, eye poke- is NEVER an educated guess. If you don't know for sure, then let it go. NEVER GUESS!!
3) It doesn't matter when a foul occurs- at the beginning or at the end of a game. You shouldn't be calling a foul anytime unless you are certain it actually is a foul.

Everything you talked about has an easy explanation. It is called JUDGMENT. I agree that you should not guess, but there are many times over a game, a season, a career where you might not be completely sure, but you make a call anyway. I agree that it sounds great to never guess, but a game might dictate that you make a call you are not 100% sure about. Even in 3 Person there are plays where we do not see every little situation on the court clearly. Sometimes the actions of the players help us make a call (I am not talking about after the call). It is our judgment to know when it is appropriate to make a call or not. There are officials that see the same action and make different calls based on their judgment.

Peace