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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 09, 2001, 11:56am
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i've got one for all you rules gurus:

first, i realize that the case book play 5.10.1D says that "one second must be allowed for normal reaction even when a correction is made."

For those of you without your casebook in front of you...this ruling is in context to an official who is looking at the clock and sees it at 5 seconds when he/she blows the whistle, and then the clock ends up being stopped at 4 sec, 3 sec, or time runs out. The ruling states that if it stops on four it's acceptable, but when you correct the error in the other two situations, the clock is set back to 4 seconds (even though you saw it stopped at 5).

with my apologies, for redundancy, to everyone that knows that ruling by heart...here is my question.

let's say you are looking at the clock WHILE you are blowing your whistle to signal a time-out for Team A. The clock shows 0.8 seconds when you signal the time-out, but because of the "lag time" the clock doesn't stop until time runs out. Are you allowed to place the clock back to 0.8 seconds? According to my understanding and reading of the rule, this would not be allowed, BUT that would just not be right. I know it's my job to enforce the rules and not worry about the "fairness" of them.

Can anyone help?

Thanks,

Jake
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Old Mon Apr 09, 2001, 12:03pm
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I also thought about this and it seems like in the casebook there are two cases back to back that almost seem to contradict each other as far as the rulings go. (sorry I can't be specific, i don't have it in front of me) I think I would use the "definite knowledge" guideline to have the clock reset to .8 in this situation, or at least that is what would seem to be the best way to handle it.
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Old Mon Apr 09, 2001, 01:29pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by 112448
let's say you are looking at the clock WHILE you are blowing your whistle to signal a time-out for Team A. The clock shows 0.8 seconds when you signal the time-out, but because of the "lag time" the clock doesn't stop until time runs out. Are you allowed to place the clock back to 0.8 seconds? According to my understanding and reading of the rule, this would not be allowed, BUT that would just not be right. I know it's my job to enforce the rules and not worry about the "fairness" of them.
What you consider fair for one team would be unfair for the opposing team. For the entire game, the clock has stopped with lag time, yet you haven't put time back on the clock. Why start now?

The case book states, "The rules do not permit the referee to make allowance for normal reaction time of the timer which results in a "lag" in stopping the clock. By interpretation, "lag or reaction" time is limited to one second when the official's signal is heard and/or seen clearly. One second or the "reaction" time is interpreted to have elapsed from the time the signal was made until the official glanced at the clock."

In your play, the game is over, and no time can be put back on the clock.

Quote:
Originally posted by devdog69
I also thought about this and it seems like in the casebook there are two cases back to back that almost seem to contradict each other as far as the rulings go. (sorry I can't be specific, i don't have it in front of me) I think I would use the "definite knowledge" guideline to have the clock reset to .8 in this situation, or at least that is what would seem to be the best way to handle it.
You can't use the definite knowledge guideline in this situation. You must allow the timer one second to stop the clock. Definite knowledge applies in situations such as 5.10.1A.
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Old Mon Apr 09, 2001, 01:52pm
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:

...
You can't use the definite knowledge guideline in this situation. You must allow the timer one second to stop the clock. Definite knowledge applies in situations such as 5.10.1A.
Of course this only applies in NFHS rules.
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Old Mon Apr 09, 2001, 02:09pm
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Thumbs up I agree

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:

...
You can't use the definite knowledge guideline in this situation. You must allow the timer one second to stop the clock. Definite knowledge applies in situations such as 5.10.1A.
Of course this only applies in NFHS rules.
If the free throws matter shoot them, if not ...game over. p.s. run quickly out of the gym

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Old Mon Apr 09, 2001, 02:38pm
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:

...
You can't use the definite knowledge guideline in this situation. You must allow the timer one second to stop the clock. Definite knowledge applies in situations such as 5.10.1A.
Of course this only applies in NFHS rules.
Dan_Ref...it too is my reading and understanding of the NCAA rules that in the situation i described i could place the clock back to 0.8. I should have been specific and asked the question according to NFHS rules.


SuppRef wrote:

"If the free throws matter shoot them, if not ...game over. p.s. run quickly out of the gym "

i'm not sure to what situation you are refering?


thanks,
Jake

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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 09, 2001, 03:00pm
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Wink At the end of the game..

Quote:
Originally posted by 112448
let's say you are looking at the clock WHILE you are blowing your whistle to signal a time-out for Team A. The clock shows 0.8 seconds when you signal the time-out, but because of the "lag time" the clock doesn't stop until time runs out.

I read your post to quickly sorry.

If there is a foul called at the end of the game when time expires, if the free throws have no way to determine the winner then we don't shoot them. Game over
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 09, 2001, 04:46pm
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No, no, no, no, no, no, no!

As a timer, I understand how frustrating this can be, but lag time is the rule.

I also had a hard time understanding the difference between 5.10.1B and 5.10.1D (the play from this post). In D, the official is looking right at the clock when the whistle blows. In B, s/he looks at the clock after blowing the whistle - the NFHS uses the time taken to look up as lag time, so there is no double lag time allowance (i.e., whistle at 2.0, look at 1.0, stop at 0.0 and horn).

Hope this helped.
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Old Mon Apr 09, 2001, 10:59pm
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Re: No, no, no, no, no, no, no!

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
As a timer, I understand how frustrating this can be, but lag time is the rule.

I also had a hard time understanding the difference between 5.10.1B and 5.10.1D (the play from this post). In D, the official is looking right at the clock when the whistle blows. In B, s/he looks at the clock after blowing the whistle - the NFHS uses the time taken to look up as lag time, so there is no double lag time allowance (i.e., whistle at 2.0, look at 1.0, stop at 0.0 and horn).
Good explanation, Mark. The case book refers to the period of time between the whistle being blown and the official looking at the clock as "reaction time" and assumes that one second has expired. Reaction time for the official and lag time for the timer. Therefore, the clock is reset at 3 seconds in 5.10.1b. If the official is looking directly at the clock whne the whistle sounds, he should allow one second for the clock to stop. This would apply to the original post where .8 seconds was left when the whistle blew. Game over.

I had this happen during a conference tournament semi-final this past season. Team behind by 3, hit a 2 and yelled for timeout. But I was looking at the clock when they requested TO and the clock was under one second. Time expired and the horn sounded before the clock could be stopped.

PS - An asst. for the losing time chased us as we left the floor. Too bad for him that the school system AD and a school board member were seated together near our locker room. His little stunt cost him $200 and a write-up in his personnel jacket.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 10, 2001, 09:58am
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NCAA clock set.

Thanks a ton for all your help on the NFHS side. I've got something else for the old mental roledex.


Just to make the point the Dan_Ref was alluding to in his earlier post, that there is a dramatic difference between the codes on this play.

From BR-41, Rule 2-12-10 A.R. 24

this is a case book play that is basically the same play as 5.10.1D in the NFHS casebook, in which the official blows his/her whistle and see the exact time remaining on the clock while doing so. The NCAA book says

"...more than one second elapsed from the time the signal was given until the timing device was stopped. The referee shall order FIVE (not 4 as with the NFHS ruling) seconds to be put on the game clock. In all cases listed in this A.R., the referee has definite information that the game clock showed five seconds and shall instruct the official timer to put that time on the game clock."

It's interesting that there is this difference between the codes. Any thoughts as to why officials on the h.s. level wouldn't be allowed to reset to 5 if they know it should be at 5, but college officials are?

thanks,
Jake


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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 10, 2001, 10:24am
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Lightbulb Re: NCAA clock set.

Quote:
Originally posted by 112448

It's interesting that there is this difference between the codes. Any thoughts as to why officials on the h.s. level wouldn't be allowed to reset to 5 if they know it should be at 5, but college officials are?

112448, (Is that a birthdate?)
I would guess the amount of training required for CCA officials could make a difference.
My guess is that the level of officiating skills is much greater between the best and worst Fed hoops official, than bewteen the best and worst College official.
The Fed probably wants to keep the game simple for us, so if we don't have to make a judgement on some point, we cannot make a wrong one.
mick
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 10, 2001, 04:22pm
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I think the difference is probably one part training (as Mick said) both of timers and of officials. One part three-person mechanics (it's easier for someone to look at the clock when you have three on the floor), and one part equipment (HS clocks, even if they show 1/10th's are rarely mounted in an easy to see spot such as above the backboard).

Separate Q: in NCAA, the clock is reset to the original time in this play. What if less than 1 second runs off the clock? Is there any reset? (I.e. whistle at 4.5, clock stops at 4.0).
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 10, 2001, 04:59pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
I think the difference is probably one part training (as Mick said) both of timers and of officials. One part three-person mechanics (it's easier for someone to look at the clock when you have three on the floor), and one part equipment (HS clocks, even if they show 1/10th's are rarely mounted in an easy to see spot such as above the backboard).

Separate Q: in NCAA, the clock is reset to the original time in this play. What if less than 1 second runs off the clock? Is there any reset? (I.e. whistle at 4.5, clock stops at 4.0).
Yes -- reset it to 4.5 in NCAA
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 11, 2001, 05:07pm
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Smile

I like reading post in this forum, I love the different opinions and differences between regions and states(and provinces).

I think human reaction time should be an accepted practice at all levels and all sports! I think the only reason that no lag time is not in high school is money.
Why don't we equip basketball uniforms with motion sensors and contact sensors, if a player moves before the sensor picks up that the dribble started or if the sensor notes sufficient contact bells and whistles sound.
No big deal is made when a star player misses half his shots, but we miss a call or the bench is a half second to slow it is a big deal. Sorry that I am venting, but we are all human (coaches,players, fans) but of course officials are supposed to be super human.

AK ref SE
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 11, 2001, 06:22pm
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I can definately accept the fact that in the end of a loud, tight game the timer should have some room for wiggle. However, when we have one of those everyone-in-the-building-knows type situations, I think the clock should be reset as accurately as possible.
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