Had this been B'ball, what would you have done

refnrev · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 08, 2005, 11:34pm

I know this is happened on a soccer game, but since we talk so much more in the B'ball forum, and since it's been kind of slow lately, I thought I'd post this here. Tranpose this situation to B'ball and please tell me what you think!
Last Fall I was watching a HS V soccer game between my son's team and another school. There is no girl's team at the high school here, so some girls do play on the boys team. Opposing team player #15 kept yelling quite loudly "Take her out! Take her out!" when the female stopper or female midfielder would get the ball. Not a one time thing, but it happened repeatedly. The year before, during warm-ups, one of the opposing players told the female midfielder that "girls didn't belong on a soccer field but on their knees." During the game, others players on that team were making racial slurs about the black referee behind his back when he was out of ear shot. I've been officaiting long enough that I kept finding myself instinctively wanting to reach into my pocket and pull out a red card! It was a 2 whistle crew, relatively new guys, and I'm sure neither official heard the remarks. At the time, I almost reported this lack of sportsmanship to the state high school association, but didn't want to sound like a disgruntled parent who was unhappy with the outcome of the game. Since that game, I've often thought that as a licensed official I should have done so. I've officated the opposing school in soccer (when my son wasn't on the team, B'ball, and V'ball. One week, the soccer V coach got tossed for a double yellow, sat the next game, and got tossed for a double yellow in the first half the next game back. The sportsmanship in every sport is very low. I can remember T-ing up 6th grade basketball players years ago for yelling and arguing calls. What would you have done as an official if you had sat on the sidelines and watched the game and seen what I did? Report it to the HS association or not?

SoFL_Rookie · #2 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 09, 2005, 12:49am

If all I have is a player yelling "take her out", then I have no call. Now, if soon after there is a hard foul on her away from / not playing the ball, then I am calling an intentional foul. "Take her out" seems a little mild for a T unless I have something else going on.

The "...on their knees" comment meets 10-3-7b for me, and I'm giving a T. If it occurred in bball warmups, then I have a bench technical - charge the player and charge the HC indirectly, 10-4-1c.

A racial slur towards me or a fellow official deserves a flagrant T, no question. Charge the player (and HC if bench personnel), player is DQ'd.

If I am a spectator, then I am leaving it to the officials to handle. If I know the officials, and I think they didn't hear or see what I did, then I would tell them after the game.

SMEngmann · #3 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 09, 2005, 03:52am

If I'm that up in arms about what happened, I'd report it to the school's AD and the officials association, I don't think I'd inform state.

drothamel · #4 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 09, 2005, 09:03am

I think that sportsmanship is one thing, and safety is another. If, even as a fan, you are concerned for the safety of the girl in question, they you should say something to someone. As far as the sportsmanship goes, I think the first place to address it, since you said you are an official, would be with your local association. If other officials notice it, the commissioner of the association, etc., then it has a much better chance of being dealt with at a higher level.

If I'm on the field/court, the "take her out" comment MIGHT warrant a technical foul for being unsportsmanlike. I don't know about soccer and the yellow card, although I imagine similar standards apply. Of course, there is always a context for things like this, which is important.

I agree with SoFL, that the racial slur is a flagrant, no question; and the "on their knees thing" is definitely a technical.

JRutledge · #5 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 09, 2005, 11:15am

If you were not on the game, the only thing I think you could do is report the incident to the AD and maybe the Principle to the school. Let them know that you overheard the comments about the Referee and make a comment about the lack of sportsmanship you witnessed. In my state a report to the state would probably not do anything. I would give the school officials a chance to respond or deal with an issue they might not be aware of. The coach might not be totally aware of what was said.

If I was an official on the game, I would address the "take her out" comment. I would not T that right off the bat. It is possible that the comment alone was just a naive comment and did not mean much. But I was not there so it is hard to tell.

Peace

rainmaker · #6 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 09, 2005, 12:10pm

When you're a spectator, you're just a spectator, although your "view" is definitely colored by your experience as a referee. But you have only one avenue open to you, which is to talk to the coach of your kid's team. I'd do this first, so that if something does come down, your coach will be in the loop and not feel left out. If you talk to your coach, he/she may also have gotten similar complaints from other parents, and that may consitute a stronger report than if you complain directly to the association or to that school's AD.

Your coach should complain to the governing body, either the league or the state athletic association. If the AD at the offending school has heard it before, he obviously doesn't care, and if he hasn't, he'll just dismiss you as a crackpot. If your coach goes to the league and says, "We've heard this repeatedly in several games, and several of our parents are very concerned" it's got a lot more chance of bringing about a change. And I wouldn't let the coach mention that any of the parents are referees. That doesn't matter. It ought to concern everyone regardless of their training in officiating.

I agree with you that "Take her out, take her out" is offensive and out of line, especially if it's said only when the girls have the ball. Even if they say that it's only calling for a slide tackle, to call for that only against the girls is to advocate very dangerous play indeed. Girls' ankles are generally much more fragile than boys' and to deliberately suggest injury seems pretty over the top to me. "Take her/him out" seems pretty extreme even in basketball whether for boys or girls. It has definite connotations that are not acceptable, regardless of the sport.

refnrev · #7 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 09, 2005, 01:42pm

I like all of your comments. The reality is that yes, he really did want to "take her out" and would have gone after her in a minute -- which would have caused a bench clearing brawl. I had one of those at the end of game once, as I am sure many of you have, and they are awful for everyone. As for the AD, you all know schools where it would do no good. My experience with these people tells me that this is one of those situations. Oddly, when I've officiated for them, I've never had a problem with this school when they are away, but when they are the home team it changes completely. The local coaches did get an apology a year earlier for the "belonging on her knees" comment, but I'm sure that was as far as it went. I do wish I had known the officials, but we've never worked together and when I'm watching my son's team, I'm not about to go up and introduce myself as an official before a game.

ChuckElias · #8 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 09, 2005, 03:33pm

Three comments on this.

First, if I were working the game, and a coach yelled "take her out" from the bench, I'm whacking him. No question. There's an obvious difference between "FOUL!" at the end of a game, and "Take her out". That's obviously unsportsmanlike, IMO.

Second, I really don't understand why people are saying that your only recourse is to go to the coach or the AD. Why is that your only recourse? You can't write an official game report to send to the state, but you can certainly write a letter voicing your concerns to the state's governing body. Anybody can do that, right? If this was a pattern, I would think that would be entirely appropriate.

Third, this is post number 6,000 for me!!

Dribble · #9 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 09, 2005, 04:48pm

Quote:

Originally posted by refnrev
The year before, during warm-ups, one of the opposing players told the female midfielder that "girls didn't belong on a soccer field but on their knees."

As a teacher, I'll tell you right now that if that comment got passed onto the administration and they knew who said it, then that kid would definitely get a suspension.

Thus, although I might also call a regular T in that situation, a flagrant T would also be backed up by the principal of that school.

Not a big stretch between racism and sexism nowadays, and considering most would give a flagrant T for the racist comment, then the same would apply for the the sexist one.

Mark Padgett · #10 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 09, 2005, 05:18pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Third, this is post number 6,000 for me!!

You have even less of a life than me. That's really pathetic.

Adam · #11 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 09, 2005, 10:16pm

"Take her out" is, at best, taunting and intimidating. If it sounded like I'm reading it (and it seems like it did from your follow up post), then it's a direct threat towards the girl.
I'm calling a T, and addressing the issue with both benches with a warning that anything resembling taunting or retribution will be deemed a flagrant T. I officiate basketball, not WWE.

rainmaker · #12 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 10, 2005, 10:16pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Second, I really don't understand why people are saying that your only recourse is to go to the coach or the AD. Why is that your only recourse? You can't write an official game report to send to the state, but you can certainly write a letter voicing your concerns to the state's governing body. Anybody can do that, right? If this was a pattern, I would think that would be entirely appropriate.

I think I said that any response he would have should be as a parent not an official, but I didn't say he couldn't go that route. I just think it would carry more weight if the
"report" was from more than one parent only. If the coach, the AD, three parents and the watergirl all express a concern, it's going to be a lot more meaningful, and it's going to get more serious attention than "just some parent going off". It'll be a lot harder for the offending players and their coach to weasel out of it.

JRutledge · #13 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 10, 2005, 10:37pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Second, I really don't understand why people are saying that your only recourse is to go to the coach or the AD. Why is that your only recourse? You can't write an official game report to send to the state, but you can certainly write a letter voicing your concerns to the state's governing body. Anybody can do that, right? If this was a pattern, I would think that would be entirely appropriate.

In my state the only people that can write reports to the state are the officials that work the games. So writing a report would do nothing. It has been said if a report is written, you better have made some kind of ejection (at least if the behavior happen during the game).

Peace

refnrev · #14 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 10, 2005, 11:39pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Snaqwells
"Take her out" is, at best, taunting and intimidating. If it sounded like I'm reading it (and it seems like it did from your follow up post), then it's a direct threat towards the girl.
I'm calling a T, and addressing the issue with both benches with a warning that anything resembling taunting or retribution will be deemed a flagrant T. I officiate basketball, not WWE.

__________________________________________________ _________
Snaqwells,
I agree -- and not just in basketball. I wish that some action onthe part of the officials had happened in the game I was speaking of.

BayStateRef · #15 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 11, 2005, 12:56pm

Quote:

Originally posted by refnrev
What would you have done as an official if you had sat on the sidelines and watched the game and seen what I did? Report it to the HS association or not?

If I am the official working that game, I want to know about it. And I have no problem with a spectator telling me: "Hey Ref, 21 Blue just called one of our kids a "bleepin' bleep." I will try to listen for such comments. If I hear it myself, then I can act within the rules of the game and the offending player (or coach) can suffer the consequences. If I don't hear it, then it is up to you to act after the game.

I called a T on a player last season for calling an opposing player a "stupid bit*ch." I heard it. Not many others in the gym did -- which is what the player wanted. When the coach asked me about the T and I told him what the player said, he told me that he has had problems with that player all season. He actually thanked me for for calling it.

I live in a largely Jewish community. The kids on the local high school teams (almost any sport) have been called the most vulgar, disgusting things possible -- because of their religious beliefs. It has taken many, many years to convince the players to tell the coach, who can then alert the officials. (The coach also is required to pass this along to the A.D. and school principal -- who are supposed to take it up with their coach. It's better today, but there are still problems with some teams -- especially on the road.)

We are a better society when individuals stand tall when they see something wrong. It's too easy to not get involved. I would applaud any step you take.