Foul Language

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JRutledge

My father has been dead since October of 1995. I do not have to explain anything to you, especially when I have been over this issue for years now. If you feel that is a big deal, you handle it the way you see fit. When I am at my games, I will handle it the way I see fit. I am Black and have a right to handle a situation in a way that will accomplish what I want that you as a white person might not have.

Peace

And it's very obvious to me what you want to accomplish.

Btw, how do you know that I'm a "white person"?

And why would being a "white person", a "black person" or "any kind of person" be relevant as to whether an official would allow any participant, no matter their color, race, religion, creed,etc. to use racial epithets?

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on May 9th, 2005 at 02:13 PM]

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by JRutledge
My father has been dead since October of 1995.

I'm sorry to hear that. I lost my mom July of '03. Mother's Day is still a little sad.

When I am at my games, I will handle it the way I see fit. I am Black and have a right to handle a situation in a way that will accomplish what I want

I think we're simply interested in how you as a Black man view this situation. As a white guy, I obviously don't have the perspective that you do on this type of question. So as a genuine honest question, I would be interested to know if you think it's ok for a Black person to use a racial "slur" (at least, that's what a white person would call it) toward another Black person.

Obviously, if I used it toward a Black person (even a good friend) I think it would be inappropriate. Can two Black people use this "vocabulary" without it being demeaning?

Is it like "I can insult my family members, but nobody outside my family can?"

[tomegun]

Chuck, NO it is not OK and I don't care what Rut says.

[JRutledge]

I really do not see the point of having this deep conversation. I have said in the past how I feel and it gets turned around by those that think everything in life is about them. If you feel that certain language is unacceptable, when you work your games you can do just that. If I am working a game, I will do the same. I do not have "magic words" that are automatics. Everything has a context and will be addressed the best way I see fit. Maybe that would be a T, maybe that would be a "talk to." Maybe that would be to tell the coach and let him deal with it.

I just have found out that this is not the place to have those kinds of discussions about race. If your only interaction with folks outside of your race is on this site and in the game of basketball, then maybe you need to find some acquaintances to have these discussions with. I am not going to be that person anymore.

Peace OUT!!!

[theboys]

Hey, everybody.

I just want to apologize to those I offended. I by no means meant anything derogatory toward anyone by my comments.

I think Camron described my sentiments best. If a white kid had said that to a black kid, and I was reffing, I would have thrown the kid out of the gym, if I could get the other player off him quickly enough. I guess the reason I mentioned it is sometime I'm not sure how those kind of comments are perceived by others. Since both players were black, I knew the term didn't carry the same intention, but as tomegun says, its a term no one should use.

Years ago, Richard Pryor had a short-lived variety show. In one skit, I can't remember it exactly, he played an old man who used the term several times in a monologue, then fell asleep. Either Richard Pryor, or another character, like I said, I can't remember, came on, and said the problem is, if you say it enough, no matter who you are, you start to believe it.

Again, I apologize. I was raised in the segregated south by a mom who tried her best to raise me to be colorblind. I try to do the same with my children. I guess I don't always do a good job.

If anyone wants to e-mail and discuss further, feel free to.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by theboys
Years ago, Richard Pryor had a short-lived variety show. In one skit, I can't remember it exactly, he played an old man who used the term several times in a monologue, then fell asleep. Either Richard Pryor, or another character, like I said, I can't remember, came on, and said the problem is, if you say it enough, no matter who you are, you start to believe it.

Again, I apologize. I was raised in the segregated south by a mom who tried her best to raise me to be colorblind. I try to do the same with my children. I guess I don't always do a good job.

If anyone wants to e-mail and discuss further, feel free to.

If scholars, comedians, actors, teachers, executives, musicians, sales people, officials, coaches, players, Athletic Directors, School Board Members, assignors, students, educators, authors and entertainers cannot agree on what is acceptable and not acceptable, what makes you think we are going to solve that issue here?

Peace

[theboys]

JRut: Amen to that.

I gotta tell ya, though, I think Charles Barkley has it right. What we need in this country is a frank discussion about race - not just blacks and whites, but all folks. I wish CNN would tackle that one.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JRutledge

If scholars, comedians, actors, teachers, executives, musicians, sales people, officials, coaches, players, Athletic Directors, School Board Members, assignors, students, educators, authors and entertainers cannot agree on what is acceptable and not acceptable, what makes you think we are going to solve that issue here?

The NFHS already solved the issue for it's officials.

NFHS rule 10-4-1(d)NOTE-- "The NFHS disapproves of any form of taunting which is intended or designed to embarrass, ridicule or demean others under any circumstances including on the basis of race, religion, gender or national origin".

I can't see anything in there saying any particular race is exempt from that rule. If the taunting involves race, religion, gender or national origin, it's prohibited.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
The NFHS already solved the issue for it's officials.

NFHS rule 10-4-1(d)NOTE-- "The NFHS disapproves of any form of taunting which is intended or designed to embarrass, ridicule or demean others under any circumstances including on the basis of race, religion, gender or national origin".

I can't see anything in there saying any particular race is exempt from that rule. If the taunting involves race, religion, gender or national origin, it's prohibited.

That is what I said? Could you find the words in this thread where I stated anything about anyone being exempt? I think I said that many people from many different backgrounds do not agree on the usage of certain words. I know that someone could avoid the word in question and offend me greatly by using other words. And folks like you have told me to not get upset over or that I was over-reacting. I guess if you feel the only way to offend someone is by using a very specific term with a historical connotation. I know that if the word "boy" was used by certain individuals that would offend me just as much if not more than being called the word you are so focused on in this post. But that just shows that officiating is about judgment and intent, not just words. I can tell you that people that live in certain parts of the country or are a certain age look at these things differently. I know my Mom who went to Florida A&M an historically Black University (how is there such a university) feels one way about a certain word and another family member that she is related to feels another way about the very same word that is much younger. The bottom line is that we all bring our own personal values and philosophies to the officiating table. I have heard others have no problem being called by their first name by a bunch of kids and I would be very offended or against that kind of interaction. We all are not the same and we all are not going to be the same.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JRutledge

That is what I said? Could you find the words in this thread where I stated anything about anyone being exempt? I think I said that many people from many different backgrounds do not agree on the usage of certain words. I know that someone could avoid the word in question and offend me greatly by using other words. And folks like you have told me to not get upset over or that I was over-reacting. I guess if you feel the only way to offend someone is by using a very specific term with a historical connotation. I know that if the word "boy" was used by certain individuals that would offend me just as much if not more than being called the word you are so focused on in this post. But that just shows that officiating is about judgment and intent, not just words. I can tell you that people that live in certain parts of the country or are a certain age look at these things differently. I know my Mom who went to Florida A&M an historically Black University (how is there such a university) feels one way about a certain word and another family member that she is related to feels another way about the very same word that is much younger. The bottom line is that we all bring our own personal values and philosophies to the officiating table. I have heard others have no problem being called by their first name by a bunch of kids and I would be very offended or against that kind of interaction. We all are not the same and we all are not going to be the same.

Peace

Are you ever gonna answer my original questions? Let's try again:

Do you feel that it's OK for anyone involved in a game to ever use racial epithets?

If so, when?

[brainbrian]

Originally posted by theboys
The referee stopped A1 in his tracks, and said something along the lines of "If I have to tell you again to shut up, I'm going to T you up. Do you want to lose the game like that?"

That means the referee already warned the coach about his language. He should have definetely given him a T then. I probably would have given him a T on the first offense. If you're just going to keep threatening someone and telling someone to stop, and they don't, you're getting no where. Then you need to inflict punishment.

My weekend foul language story:
I dished out a T this weekend for a player yelling "****" after he missed an open layup and the other team got the rebound.

[tomegun]

Originally posted by JRutledge
I really do not see the point of having this deep conversation. I have said in the past how I feel and it gets turned around by those that think everything in life is about them. If you feel that certain language is unacceptable, when you work your games you can do just that. If I am working a game, I will do the same. I do not have "magic words" that are automatics. Everything has a context and will be addressed the best way I see fit. Maybe that would be a T, maybe that would be a "talk to." Maybe that would be to tell the coach and let him deal with it.

I just have found out that this is not the place to have those kinds of discussions about race. If your only interaction with folks outside of your race is on this site and in the game of basketball, then maybe you need to find some acquaintances to have these discussions with. I am not going to be that person anymore.

Peace OUT!!!

How do you expect to get anywhere when you say something that is pretty good and then you end it with a dig?

This is the bottom line, if someone doesn't know and comes here to ask that is good. YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER! You know how I know? I have 34 years experience on this earth that says so! If it isn't an automatic T for you then that is really sad. I'm asking you (almost begging) if you don't have something to add to a thread like this leave it alone. Please?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by tomegun


How do you expect to get anywhere when you say something that is pretty good and then you end it with a dig?

This is the bottom line, if someone doesn't know and comes here to ask that is good. YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER! You know how I know? I have 34 years experience on this earth that says so! If it isn't an automatic T for you then that is really sad. I'm asking you (almost begging) if you don't have something to add to a thread like this leave it alone. Please?

Tommy,

You sound like a lot of people whose way to make the world a better place is through what you do as an official. I on the other hand realize that I am just an official and I am not going to change minds or attitudes because I give someone a T. I can change behaviors by using my voice and giving my opinion just like I do other times during a game. No, it is not an automatic T for players that are of the same race when they use language that they use on a regular basis. It would not be an automatic T if players spoke in Spanish and I did not know exactly what they said. Does that mean it would get a T? Of course it would under the right circumstances. Just like the issue that we are talking about. And they fact that you do not understand that, either you do not get out much and talk to those that look like us in Nevada or you think we all should think alike. I have no idea what Nevada is like how many Black people are there. I do know that I belong to an association that is almost entirely Black and works a lot of Chicago Public League ball. I also know that when I work city/suburban games the race of the officials always seems to be an issue. Three of officials that worked the state finals took a lot of heat for not "helping out" a city team get to the State Finals. These officials took much more crap from their own people than whether a single word is used.

There was a documentary on the TV channel called Trio. The documentary's name was "The N Word." There were people from all walks of life from the many areas I mentioned in my earlier post. There were Black people that were conflicted by the word, admittedly upset by the usage, and others that were in acceptance of its usage and others that used it for shock value and to take out the sting of the word. And there were people that were of all ages and all different types of backgrounds that had many different points of view. I suggest Tommy that you read more about the many points of view or listen to the many points of view that are out in the public by books or in interviews. You will find that many are conflicted about what to do or what not to do when it comes to this word.

Let me also address one more thing. Condoning something has nothing to do with giving a T. I know that in many aspects of officiating officials give warnings or talk to players about all kinds of things. I see officials give all kinds of warnings when there are conduct issues in a basketball game. I have yet to see an official give an "automatic T" for taunting players. Probably why you see more and more POEs on certain attitudes or why new rules have to be clarified so that officials can take action. The use of language is the same thing in my thinking. There is slang terms that I might identify that older people would never realize would be offensive. I do not concern myself with single words and what I will do when I hear those words. All words have context and different meaning depending on how they are used and who uses them. That is the case whether you or I agree. The people that use certain words think so. That is the world we live in. If you do not want to have much of a thought process and give out Ts, then that is your right. You do not have the right to tell me how to react when we not only live in different states, we do not even have the same background and schools with the same history.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Are you ever gonna answer my original questions? Let's try again:

Do you feel that it's OK for anyone involved in a game to ever use racial epithets?

If so, when?

Why are you not asking those that live in your area?

Peace

[Dan_ref]

You are too much.

Thanks for the laugh though.