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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 18, 2005, 08:38pm
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Yes, I am writing a paper about girl's basketball in Michigan. I was wondering, now that both girl's and boy's basketball will be playing in the same season, can a referee only ref one game per night, or can the referee as many as they want?
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Old Mon Apr 18, 2005, 09:09pm
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At some of the small schools, people may do boys/girls DHs. And sometimes, they do frosh boys/girls DHs. It really depends on what the board of officials and the scholastic assn. want to do. [VT]
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Old Mon Apr 18, 2005, 11:14pm
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I don't want to be a nit-picker here, but actually, the seasons have not been switched yet.

The Supreme Court is to decide by month's end if they want to hear the case. If they don't, then it's expected that seasons will change for 05-06.

The MHSAA hs two season setups in place for 05-06 - The current setup and the setup required should the Surpreme Court decide not to hear the case (or should it eventually rule against the MHSAA).

#

With that said, different conferences are going to do different things should the seasons realign. Some conferences might play games on Saturdays, others might have boys and girls play opposite. The schools, through their conferences have the flexibility to do what they think suits them best.
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Old Mon Apr 18, 2005, 11:34pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stat-Man
I don't want to be a nit-picker here, but actually, the seasons have not been switched yet.

The Supreme Court is to decide by month's end if they want to hear the case. If they don't, then it's expected that seasons will change for 05-06.

The MHSAA hs two season setups in place for 05-06 - The current setup and the setup required should the Surpreme Court decide not to hear the case (or should it eventually rule against the MHSAA).

#

With that said, different conferences are going to do different things should the seasons realign. Some conferences might play games on Saturdays, others might have boys and girls play opposite. The schools, through their conferences have the flexibility to do what they think suits them best.
Under the old arrangement, did refs ever work more than one game a night?
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Old Tue Apr 19, 2005, 10:59am
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Well, I can speak from MI experience.

It is common to work multiple games in one day, typically a ref could work a city V game or a frosh game @4:00 then hit a V game @ 7:00 in the burbs or perhaps a MS game then hit a V game.

Yes, it is true that the MHSAA is awaiting the Supreme Court response but informed sources are advising not to hold out much hope for a positive answer. It will be likely that next season will see more refs working 2 games a night to just accomodate the need for game coverage. The conferences will decide what format they will implement on an individual basis.

However, it is unlikely that the public schools will play games on Saturday due to the prohibitive cost for supervision and custodial staffing needs. The early surveys suggest that Girls and Boys will play on the same nights; that is, Girls home and Boys away or Varsity teams play at home while the JV teams play away. The reality is that some schools will be forced to drop the Frosh programs due to coaching or facility limitations as well.
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Old Tue Apr 19, 2005, 12:58pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by Stat-Man
I don't want to be a nit-picker here, but actually, the seasons have not been switched yet.

The Supreme Court is to decide by month's end if they want to hear the case. If they don't, then it's expected that seasons will change for 05-06.

The MHSAA hs two season setups in place for 05-06 - The current setup and the setup required should the Surpreme Court decide not to hear the case (or should it eventually rule against the MHSAA).

#

With that said, different conferences are going to do different things should the seasons realign. Some conferences might play games on Saturdays, others might have boys and girls play opposite. The schools, through their conferences have the flexibility to do what they think suits them best.
Under the old arrangement, did refs ever work more than one game a night?



Juulie,
Outside of the big metropolitan areas (Detroit, Grand Rapids, other large areas), usually one game is worked per day.

Just got a fax from the MHSAA.
"The MHSAA has been notified that April 29h has been set as a date the US Supreme Court will conduct a conference regarding it's request to consider an appeal of the lower court rulings in the sports seasons litigation"
"It is likely that the Supreme Court will notify the MHSAA on May 2nd whether or not it will take the case"
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Old Tue Apr 19, 2005, 01:03pm
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What is the big deal?

Why is it difficult to play games on different nights or to get a different set of officials for each game?

Unless conferences are playing 50 games, can they not play games on specific nights? The biggest conferences might have 10-12 teams. The conference games are usually set on very specific nights. For example, Tuesday and Friday might be conference nights. Then Saturday is a typical non-conference night, which everyone does not always play. Now that is the boy's side. The girl's play basketball games usually on Monday, Wednesday and Thursdays. Some will play on Fridays and Saturdays as well. It has become popular to play Saturday afternoon games on the girl's side. Not only does it make it easy for the officials to work both a Girl's game and a Boy's game in the same day, but it also takes allows the crowds to support both if they choose to.

In my state teams are only allowed to play at the most 20 regular season games outside of tournaments or shootouts. At the most teams can only participate in 3 tournaments during the season. Unless a team goes deep into the playoffs, they will almost never play more than 30 games total.

It is not completely unusual that a school's program will only play once a week. Or the games are played on the weekends where more officials are available to work as a rule. I guess I am not understanding why this is such a difficult dilemma? I was also under the impression that Michigan does not work much 3 Person either. What is the problem? Why would it be so difficult to get enough officials to work a single varsity game?

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Old Tue Apr 19, 2005, 01:39pm
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Re: What is the big deal?

Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
Why is it difficult to play games on different nights or to get a different set of officials for each game?

Unless conferences are playing 50 games, can they not play games on specific nights? The biggest conferences might have 10-12 teams. The conference games are usually set on very specific nights. For example, Tuesday and Friday might be conference nights. Then Saturday is a typical non-conference night, which everyone does not always play. Now that is the boy's side. The girl's play basketball games usually on Monday, Wednesday and Thursdays. Some will play on Fridays and Saturdays as well. It has become popular to play Saturday afternoon games on the girl's side. Not only does it make it easy for the officials to work both a Girl's game and a Boy's game in the same day, but it also takes allows the crowds to support both if they choose to.

In my state teams are only allowed to play at the most 20 regular season games outside of tournaments or shootouts. At the most teams can only participate in 3 tournaments during the season. Unless a team goes deep into the playoffs, they will almost never play more than 30 games total.

It is not completely unusual that a school's program will only play once a week. Or the games are played on the weekends where more officials are available to work as a rule. I guess I am not understanding why this is such a difficult dilemma? I was also under the impression that Michigan does not work much 3 Person either. What is the problem? Why would it be so difficult to get enough officials to work a single varsity game?

Peace
To dispel one impression, in Michigan, 3-man is used for most Varsity contests during the regular season.

There are many conferences that have 20+ teams. Basketball is HUGE in Michigan. Michigan 's total of 128,752 female participants rank only behind Texas , California and New York , the nation's top three states in total population and in females 14-17 years of age according to the U.S. Census Bureau.

There are 763 total high schools and 826 junior high middle schools in the MHSAA (as of Jan. 1, 2005)....for the math deficiendo's that's 1,589 teams which translates into 1,589 weekly games (assuming two nights per week). The 2003-04 girls participation total was a Michigan record for the second straight year, and the overall and boys participation figures were their second highest ever.



Further, many refs only work one night per week or refuse to work girls' games.

Yes, this can be and is a dilemma.


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Old Tue Apr 19, 2005, 01:48pm
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Re: Re: What is the big deal?

Quote:

Originally posted by Robmoz


Yes, this can be and is a dilemma.
Still doesn't seem to be any more a dilemma in MI as it does in say IN or IL.

I worked in MI for one year and never worked more than one game in a night, of course that was in the 98/99 season.
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Old Tue Apr 19, 2005, 02:00pm
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Re: Re: What is the big deal?

Quote:
Originally posted by Robmoz


To dispel one impression, in Michigan, 3-man is used for most Varsity contests during the regular season.

There are many conferences that have 20+ teams. Basketball is HUGE in Michigan. Michigan 's total of 128,752 female participants rank only behind Texas , California and New York , the nation's top three states in total population and in females 14-17 years of age according to the U.S. Census Bureau.

There are 763 total high schools and 826 junior high middle schools in the MHSAA (as of Jan. 1, 2005)....for the math deficiendo's that's 1,589 teams which translates into 1,589 weekly games (assuming two nights per week). The 2003-04 girls participation total was a Michigan record for the second straight year, and the overall and boys participation figures were their second highest ever.



Further, many refs only work one night per week or refuse to work girls' games.

Yes, this can be and is a dilemma.


Illinois has over 800 High Schools (I do not have the exact number). In many school districts there are multiple JH compared for just one HS. I am not sure why this is any more of an issue than in my state or other places that have been playing both boy's and girl's basketball in the same season for years. Not sure why this would be a problem just in Michigan.

The issue is not the amount of players playing; the issue is the amount of games and coverage of those games. Basketball is huge here as well. Our state gives each class and genders their individual weekend to play their Championships. These games get covered. The main problem we have is officials are not as willing to work girl's basketball. The numbers are not the cause of that, the willingness to work girl's basketball is. Not much different than those that work baseball and softball. There are just people that have a preference and that is the way it is going to be.

Peace
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Old Tue Apr 19, 2005, 03:02pm
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It's more of an issue because previously the girls played in the fall and the boys played in the winter. Now there will be twice as many games to work in the winter with the same amount of officials. That's why it's an issue.

DUH!
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Old Tue Apr 19, 2005, 03:04pm
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Question

What associations allow officials to "turn down" games?
AAR
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 19, 2005, 03:04pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Robmoz
The early surveys suggest that Girls and Boys will play on the same nights; that is, Girls home and Boys away or Varsity teams play at home while the JV teams play away. The reality is that some schools will be forced to drop the Frosh programs due to coaching or facility limitations as well.
Some conferences will want to play JV/V girls at one site and JV/V boys at the opposite site. When that happens, coaches are going to scream that the assignors are sending the better officials to the boys doubleheader. Mark my words, it will happen.
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Old Tue Apr 19, 2005, 03:52pm
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All this I am hearing is very strange to me. Where I come from it is the status quo that on tuesday and friday nights there are high school games in which one set of three officials referee a girls varsity game followed right after by a boys varsity game.

After hearing all this I now understand why officials are considered better in most other parts of the country than here in Tennessee. It is because we do a girls game and then a boys game, which are 2 totally different types of ball being played and it is so hard to be consistent when you have to pretty much change the way you officiate girls and boys.
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Old Tue Apr 19, 2005, 04:08pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by oatmealqueen

Just got a fax from the MHSAA.
"The MHSAA has been notified that April 29h has been set as a date the US Supreme Court will conduct a conference regarding it's request to consider an appeal of the lower court rulings in the sports seasons litigation"
"It is likely that the Supreme Court will notify the MHSAA on May 2nd whether or not it will take the case"
Can we send the MHSAA a fax about their poor use of grammar?
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