OOB without authorization?

[Back In The Saddle]

With the POE this year on the offense playing oob, I got thinking about this play that a team here in our valley runs frequently.

A1 dribbles along the sideline toward his endline. He picks up his dribble at the endline, jumps oob and while in the air passes to A2 who is on the far side of the key. A1 then lands oob. He is not forced out or off-balance or any normal kind of reason for being going oob, going oob to make this pass is a part of the play.

I have heard varying opinions on whether this should be a technical foul for leaving the court for an unauthorized reason (same rule as running oob) or not. Some folks say that the player was technically inbounds when he made the pass, therefore it's legal. Some say that he's using the area oob to make plays in, therefore it's illegal. What do you think?

[JRutledge]

That would be nit picking in my judgment. The POE talked about avoiding screens or moving to get open. It does not sound like that is the case in your example. If anything talk to the player, but I do not think you even need to do that. Use a little common sense in this case. Do not call something because you can prove you once read the rulebook.

Peace

[blindzebra]

Moving and making a pass near a boundary could be considered momentum, I think it depends on what the player does AFTER they go OOB.

If they re-enter immediately at the approximate spot they left the floor, I have nothing.

If they stay OOB or move toward the paint and re-enter as a backdoor cutter, then you have a T.

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by blindzebra
Moving and making a pass near a boundary could be considered momentum, I think it depends on what the player does AFTER they go OOB.

If they re-enter immediately at the approximate spot they left the floor, I have nothing.

If they stay OOB or move toward the paint and re-enter as a backdoor cutter, then you have a T.

I agree with BZ.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle

A1 dribbles along the sideline toward his endline. He picks up his dribble at the endline, jumps oob and while in the air passes to A2 who is on the far side of the key. A1 then lands oob. He is not forced out or off-balance or any normal kind of reason for being going oob, going oob to make this pass is a part of the play.

I have heard varying opinions on whether this should be a technical foul for leaving the court for an unauthorized reason (same rule as running oob) or not. Some folks say that the player was technically inbounds when he made the pass, therefore it's legal. Some say that he's using the area oob to make plays in, therefore it's illegal. What do you think?

The FED wanted to penalize players that went OOB to gain an advantage. In this play, the player gains absolutely no advantage or is part of any play when he/she is OOB.

How can anbody say that a player is using the OOB area to make a play in when that player wasn't OOB when they actually made the play? That's patently ridiculous.

[BamaRef]

My concern with this play and I have seen it run many times is that the offensive player is gaining an advantage when they jump out of bounds to make the toss across the key.

In the NFHS rules book under the heading of Points of Emphasis page 70 it states, "Players must play the game within the confines of the playing court. Otherwise, a tremendous advantage is gained by allowing a team or player more space than allowed." It then goes on and talks about players running out of bounds to avoid defenders and to go around screens. (JRut's points)

If the rules require a defensive player to establish defensive guarding position inbounds and maintain it inbounds, then why are we giving an advantage to the offensive player by allowing him/her to jump and land out of bounds to make a pass. They are not saving the ball nor is their momentunm carrying them out of bounds. They are deliberately jumping out of bounds to avoid the defense. It should be fair for both offensive and defensive players at the same time. In my book, this is a technical foul and another reason this rule should be changed to a violation.

[JugglingReferee]

I got nutin'.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by BamaRef
If the rules require a defensive player to establish defensive guarding position inbounds and maintain it inbounds, then why are we giving an advantage to the offensive player by allowing him/her to jump and land out of bounds to make a pass. They are not saving the ball nor is their momentunm carrying them out of bounds. They are deliberately jumping out of bounds to avoid the defense. It should be fair for both offensive and defensive players at the same time. In my book, this is a technical foul and another reason this rule should be changed to a violation.

I have never seen that happen. If you have maybe you have been watching more basketball than I have. I guess my question is why would a player do that? If their momentum did not take them out of bounds, then why would a player just jump out of bounds? At least I can see how you could call a T for a player avoiding a T or avoiding a violation of some kind (3 seconds). I cannot see how you have a T for this action. I guess you can read into the rule and come up with that, but as I stated before that would not make good common sense.

Peace

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by BamaRef
My concern with this play and I have seen it run many times is that the offensive player is gaining an advantage when they jump out of bounds to make the toss across the key.

In the NFHS rules book under the heading of Points of Emphasis page 70 it states, "Players must play the game within the confines of the playing court. Otherwise, a tremendous advantage is gained by allowing a team or player more space than allowed." It then goes on and talks about players running out of bounds to avoid defenders and to go around screens. (JRut's points)

If the rules require a defensive player to establish defensive guarding position inbounds and maintain it inbounds, then why are we giving an advantage to the offensive player by allowing him/her to jump and land out of bounds to make a pass. They are not saving the ball nor is their momentunm carrying them out of bounds. They are deliberately jumping out of bounds to avoid the defense. It should be fair for both offensive and defensive players at the same time. In my book, this is a technical foul and another reason this rule should be changed to a violation.

There is no rule to keep the defense from jumping OOB to defend this pass either.

Players make passes outside boundaries and around defenders all the time during traps on the sideline or entering the ball to the post on the endline.

By your interpretation if a defender steps OOB and deflects a pass that should be a T, since they were outside the confines of the playing surface.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BamaRef
1) My concern with this play and I have seen it run many times is that the offensive player is gaining an advantage when they jump out of bounds to make the toss across the key.

2) In the NFHS rules book under the heading of Points of Emphasis page 70 it states, "Players must play the game within the confines of the playing court. Otherwise, a tremendous advantage is gained by allowing a team or player more space than allowed."

3) If the rules require a defensive player to establish defensive guarding position inbounds and maintain it inbounds, then why are we giving an advantage to the offensive player by allowing him/her to jump and land out of bounds to make a pass. They are not saving the ball nor is their momentunm carrying them out of bounds. They are deliberately jumping out of bounds to avoid the defense. It should be fair for both offensive and defensive players at the same time. In my book, this is a technical foul and another reason this rule should be changed to a violation.

1) Say what? When did the player jump OOB to make the toss across the key. The toss across the key was made by a player that was in bounds, by rule. The player went OOB after making a play--no different than a shooter going OOB after making a lay-up. Do you wanna "T" those plays up too?

2) When exactly is the player making the pass in this play not not within the confines of the playing court, pray tell? Isn't he completely in bounds when he makes the pass? How can the POE apply to an in-bounds player?

3) When did anybody allow a player to "jump and land out of bounds to make a pass" in this play? The pass was made in-bounds by an in-bounds player.

There is absolutely no rules justification to call a technical foul on this play. It is completely legal, as per the rules. The FED POE was issued to stop players from going OOB to gain an advantage. You can't penalize them for making a legal play before they go OOB.

[drothamel]

First of all, this seems like a pretty stupid play to me. I don't see how it could be run successfully more than once. I mean, if I am the defender, it seems pretty easy to pick this pass of, but maybe I just don't understand your description exactly. If I do, you can't T the kid. He is making an inbounds play, by rule. It sounds like it would be very similar to a situation in which he jumps out of bounds to save the ball, and then passes it. Jumping to save the ball creates an advantage, i.e. the opposition isn't willing to do that. We don't T them up for that. I agree with the others that the POE is for the avoiding of screens and even the avoiding of defenses. In this case, the player is legally in bounds when he makes the play. Let it go.

Kudos to JR for the "pray tell." I love some good old Shakespearian verbiage every once in a while

[BamaRef]

Okay. Okay. I have seen the light and am converted. This play works and is used by a team in our valley. I have seen it run several times in a game. The next time I see it, I will remember your words of wisdom and nod my head with great approval. Again, a warm thank you for helping me see my error.

[drothamel]

Maybe I don't get this play at all. Are you saying that he is standing there and just jumps out of bounds and throws it across the court to a player who, obviously, is in bounds? Is he gaining some type of advantage on the angle of the pass that keeps it from being intercepted? Is the player receiving the pass catching it over the plane of the endline. I am just having a hard time envisioning why the defense would not be able to pick off the pass, or strand the ball carrier out of bounds by guarding his teammates? It just seems like a strange play to me.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by drothamel

Kudos to JR for the "pray tell." I love some good old Shakespearian verbiage every once in a while

"Out, out, damn spot"- as she rubbed her hands with Glee(a Scottish detergent).

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by drothamel
Maybe I don't get this play at all. Are you saying that he is standing there and just jumps out of bounds and throws it across the court to a player who, obviously, is in bounds? Is he gaining some type of advantage on the angle of the pass that keeps it from being intercepted? Is the player receiving the pass catching it over the plane of the endline. I am just having a hard time envisioning why the defense would not be able to pick off the pass, or strand the ball carrier out of bounds by guarding his teammates? It just seems like a strange play to me.

The angle definitely does allow the player to pass around the defense.