Hand Checking

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by rainmaker


Jeff --

The point is that things are called differently in different areas. Around here, we need to call hand-checking tightly, especially if an assignor or evaluator is watching. In your locale, it appears that things are different. it's important to keep saying this because others who lurk around here don't always have the full understanding of how things are done across the country.

Who said anything about not calling hand checking? I never said not to call hand checking. I never said I do not call hand checking. I said I do not call it unless there is some displacement. I could add holding, directing and moving to this discussion as well. If a defender simply touches a dribbler you cannot honestly tell me you have a foul. If that is the case your games have to have 50 fouls and no one is able to play because they are sitting on the bench.

Also what I am saying is not very different from what I see on TV on a regular basis. I do not see anyone across the country at the college level calling a simple touch as a hand check. So I do not think we need to talk about what is acceptable in our area and what is not acceptable in other areas. I do not see anything different when watching basketball in California or even the ESPN High School games than what I see in my backyard every game. The only level that is very specific in what is a hand checking call is NCAA Women's basketball. They go into great detail as to what is a foul and talk specifically about if a player is touched and how is a foul. Just because the NF did not use specific words does not mean that people do not have different interpretations of this or any rule.

Peace

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Who said anything about not calling hand checking? I never said not to call hand checking. I never said I do not call hand checking. I said I do not call it unless there is some displacement. I could add holding, directing and moving to this discussion as well. If a defender simply touches a dribbler you cannot honestly tell me you have a foul. If that is the case your games have to have 50 fouls and no one is able to play because they are sitting on the bench.

Also what I am saying is not very different from what I see on TV on a regular basis. I do not see anyone across the country at the college level calling a simple touch as a hand check. So I do not think we need to talk about what is acceptable in our area and what is not acceptable in other areas. I do not see anything different when watching basketball in California or even the ESPN High School games than what I see in my backyard every game. The only level that is very specific in what is a hand checking call is NCAA Women's basketball. They go into great detail as to what is a foul and talk specifically about if a player is touched and how is a foul. Just because the NF did not use specific words does not mean that people do not have different interpretations of this or any rule.

Peace

I didn't say you weren't calling hand-checking. And I'm not saying anythning about everyone calling it the way MY assignor wants it called.

You're doing great for where you work, and who you work for. Otherwise you wouldn't be at the level you are. But not everyone works college, or even the kinds of hs games that get on TV.

I'm just saying that how the rule is interpreted is different from place to place and other refs can't necessarily count on their assignors wanting it done the way yours do. It's like 3-seconds. Interps vary, and the best thing for any ref is to do what's expected in their location.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by rainmaker

I'm just saying that how the rule is interpreted is different from place to place and other refs can't necessarily count on their assignors wanting it done the way yours do. It's like 3-seconds. Interps vary, and the best thing for any ref is to do what's expected in their location.

Well you cannot tailor every discussion to what people do in their own backyard. I personally do not care what others do in other states because I do not work there. That is up to those that officiate in those states or belong to a particular association have to decide what anyone says may not apply to them. I am just saying that there is some displacement in the way many call the game. Whether that applies to your state or not is up to you to figure out.

Remember this post was started based on some comments I made in another post. I was commenting on why something might not have been called or overlooked in response to another poster. I was not talking about where I live or where the person I was responding to lived. I was just stating that maybe because there was not any displacement is the main reason why people are not seeing more hand checking fouls. I was not telling anyone what to do, just stating an opinion.

Peace

[tomegun]

I think what JRut is saying is what is done, what is taught (in the majority of camps) and what we see on TV. Of course I haven't been every place so that statement in itself can be disputed. Although the verbage is different I would be surprised if Jurassic assigned JRut a game and didn't like the way he called hand-checking. Is this call different from any other contact? I don't think Jurassic, Rainmaker or anyone else is making this an absolute but JRut IMO is applying this using "if" instead of "when."

1. When a defensive player puts a hand on the dribbler a foul should be called.
2. If a defensive player puts a hand on the dribbler and uses the hand to constantly measure up, reroute or impede the dribbler a foul should be called.

I think JRut is saying he follows #2 and others have stated, not in practice but typed words, that they would call more like #1. I think something similar could be applied to various fouls to include rough play and post play which are also POEs.

[Jimgolf]

This is one of the things wrong with officiating at the HS level - the lack of consistancy from official to official. The whole point of having an NFHS is to standardize calls. When NFHS puts out a point of emphasis, it is because officals are not interpreting the call the way the NFHS wants it called.

JRut is correct in looking for advantage/disadvantage if that is what his local association asks for, but the state association should be ensuring that the POE is followed throughout the state, or issue its own POE. It is unfair to have teams playing in a statewide tournament facing a new set of interpretations after following a different philosophy for the rest of the season.

[Junker]

I agree that the hand check is very much about advantage/disadvantage, especially with more athletically gifted players. As long as the dribbler is getting where he's trying to go without the defender impeding his progress, why stop the game for having a hand on the dribbler? The some holds true for the forearm in the back on post players. As long as it's not affecting the action, why put up more fouls that will lead to more free throws?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Junker
I agree that the hand check is very much about advantage/disadvantage, especially with more athletically gifted players. As long as the dribbler is getting where he's trying to go without the defender impeding his progress, why stop the game for having a hand on the dribbler? The some holds true for the forearm in the back on post players. As long as it's not affecting the action, why put up more fouls that will lead to more free throws?

Um, maybe because the FED wrote rules telling us to, and then issued POE's telling to follow those rules?

The problem is that the advantage/disadvantage part that you're talking about is never uniformly administered. That's obvious from this discussion too. Everybody's got their own idea on how to call it, and as JimGolf said above, the team's sometimes aren't sure of exactly what they can do or not do on defense. That's wrong imo.

[RollTide]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge
[B]

Originally posted by BktBallRef


Jeff --

Around here, we need to call hand-checking tightly, especially if an assignor or evaluator is watching. In your locale, it appears that things are different. it's important to keep saying this because others who lurk around here don't always have the full understanding of how things are done across the country.

In my opinion, you should be calling every game as if an evaluator or assigner was there

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Jimgolf
This is one of the things wrong with officiating at the HS level - the lack of consistancy from official to official. The whole point of having an NFHS is to standardize calls. When NFHS puts out a point of emphasis, it is because officals are not interpreting the call the way the NFHS wants it called.

JRut is correct in looking for advantage/disadvantage if that is what his local association asks for, but the state association should be ensuring that the POE is followed throughout the state, or issue its own POE. It is unfair to have teams playing in a statewide tournament facing a new set of interpretations after following a different philosophy for the rest of the season.

For the record Jim, our local associations do not dictate what we call or what we do not call. I am lucky if I even work with people in any association I belong to. I would say about 80% of the time I do not work with people that I do not share an association membership with (I belong to 4 different groups). Local associations are training organizations, not assigning organizations. Our state office holds rules meetings and that is where philosophies are shared and they give interpretations on how to handle things. Not ever POE is a problem in every state. A lot of times they tell us their philosophy and that is what we follow from the start of the season to the playoffs. The state assigns the playoff games, not the local associations. Many times the people they assigned are calling the game the way they want.

Peace