We had the dreaded "BLARGE"!!

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by TravelinMan

Why not hold up on signal if you can? Put up raised fist but come together to discuss. That way it does not look like either one of you are backing off, even though you may decide to do that. If you are both adamant about the call, then go with the blarge.

That is the ideal...but the situation being discussed is when they've both already signaled...for whatever reason. If neither or just one has signaled, there is no issue.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by gordon30307

I disagree. With a double whistle what's the rush in signaling what the type of foul is being called. Fist in the air is what should have been done. Proper mechanic is to get together to discuss. I suspect no indication of of the type of foul was given. Sounds to me that this is a case of not trusting your partner. Note in the original post it was two guys who work togehter frequently with another official from out of state. I suspect the Center was the outsider. Easy explanation to the Coach we agreed in our pregame if this happened it would be Primary's call. Do I expect the Coach to be happy? Probably not.

The crew may have done a great job overall but in my opionion this particular play was handled poorly.

As I also replied to Travelin...your suggestion is ideal but the point of the discussion is that they've both already signaled...for whatever reason. You can't take back the signals without potentially creating problems.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Why is there a specific case play for this then? [/B]

It's to handle the situation where two Ref's use poor mechanics when a double whistle occurs and neither one wants to back off. It's a way to cover your a**. [/B][/QUOTE]Congratulations, Gordon. I've seen NCAA officials who have worked Final Fours be involved in blarges. I've seen it happen to officials that were regarded as some of the all-time greats of our avocation. It's nice to know that there's one official in the country that it would never happen to. Yup, gordon30307. Maybe you could offer your services to the NCAA. You know, go around to all of the conferences and teach their officiating staffs how to avoid blarges. [/B][/QUOTE]

The three things that Gordon isn't mentioning are:

(1) Primaries do meet up at certain places on the floor
(2) SOME block/charge decisions are close enough so that different angles may have different views of the play
(3) Officials are human

I have no problem with calling the AP as per the case book. However, I don't think one necessarily needs to stick with the AP if one of the officials is able to add additional information that can bring the crew to a consensus.

Hell, I pointed the wrong way on an out of bounds call last night because I missed a tip on the far side of the court. The trail helped me out and gave me additional information. Nothing FORCED me to keep my original call in this situation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
[/B]

I have no problem with calling the AP as per the case book. However, I don't think one necessarily needs to stick with the AP if one of the officials is able to add additional information that can bring the crew to a consensus.

[/B][/QUOTE]Exactly. The case play tells us what to do when we can't agree on who got it right. Iow, it goes hand-in-hand with #3- us being human. Hey, I gotta admit that I've been involved in blarges before. Never ever came out of one feeling that I've failed as an official though, just because I happened to be involved in one. Never, ever jumped on my partner either for seeing the play differently than I did. We talk about it after the game. If we can get film, it's a good play to review also. I ain't smart enough to ensure that one will never happen to me again though.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

It's to handle the situation where two Ref's use poor mechanics when a double whistle occurs and neither one wants to back off. It's a way to cover your a**. [/B]

Congratulations, Gordon. I've seen NCAA officials who have worked Final Fours be involved in blarges. I've seen it happen to officials that were regarded as some of the all-time greats of our avocation. It's nice to know that there's one official in the country that it would never happen to. Yup, gordon30307. Maybe you could offer your services to the NCAA. You know, go around to all of the conferences and teach their officiating staffs how to avoid blarges. [/B][/QUOTE]

The three things that Gordon isn't mentioning are:

(1) Primaries do meet up at certain places on the floor
(2) SOME block/charge decisions are close enough so that different angles may have different views of the play
(3) Officials are human

I have no problem with calling the AP as per the case book. However, I don't think one necessarily needs to stick with the AP if one of the officials is able to add additional information that can bring the crew to a consensus.

Hell, I pointed the wrong way on an out of bounds call last night because I missed a tip on the far side of the court. The trail helped me out and gave me additional information. Nothing FORCED me to keep my original call in this situation. [/B][/QUOTE]

[gordon30307]

It's quite simply impossible to have a block and a charge. One of the officials is wrong. How you resolve this is a completely different issue. Going the double foul route is the wishy washee, beuracratic, kissing your sister, unable, to make a decision way to resolve this. If you're comfortable with that.... Hey whatever floats your boat.

[ronny mulkey]

Jr and Rich,

I would like to add to the primaries becoming blurred and tape that y'all talked about. When we have asked officials about these types of plays they can't agree upon WHERE the play started or the collision OCCURRED. They are flabbergasted when they see the play on tape. One, or both can be as far as 15 feet off in their guestimations. I think people do know their primaries, but instead of these plays being drawn up on a chalkboard, they happen at warp speed with focus on where defensive players are coming from and did the defensive player get there in time. The wonder is not that blarges occur, but that they don't occur more often than reported.

I'd also like to point out that most of the time these guys are very good officials.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by gordon30307
It's quite simply impossible to have a block and a charge. One of the officials is wrong. How you resolve this is a completely different issue. Going the double foul route is the wishy washee, beuracratic, kissing your sister, unable, to make a decision way to resolve this. If you're comfortable with that.... Hey whatever floats your boat.

Well, you're right that it can't be both. But as I said before, which one is wrong? The NFHS is a very clear case says neither...both calls stand.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by gordon30307
It's quite simply impossible to have a block and a charge. One of the officials is wrong. How you resolve this is a completely different issue. Going the double foul route is the wishy washee, beuracratic, kissing your sister, unable, to make a decision way to resolve this. If you're comfortable with that.... Hey whatever floats your boat.

And....how do you plan on resolving it, Gordon, if you call a charge and your partner calls a block...and your partner declines to change his call even though you tell him that, of course, you are right? I know that you've said that a blarge could never,ever in a gazillion years possibly occur when you're officiating, but humor me. You're already on record as saying that you won't change your call because to do so would be a "wishy-washy,bureaucratic,kissing your sister, unable to make a decision way to resolve this". Do you and your partner just stand there looking at each other while the players grow old and die, the earth cools and the solar system implodes? What's your solution?

[RollTide]

1) innie, minnie, miney, moe

2) flip a coin (probably will be seen by others though)

3) draw straws ... peaknuckle

4) if you're in a 3 man crew, get the official that isn't involved in the blarge to guess a # between 1 and 10 (and tell both captains what the # is for validation).. which ever official is the closest without going over, we go with his/her call

[Edited by RollTide on Mar 2nd, 2005 at 03:58 PM]

[drothamel]

My personal favorite would have to be rock, paper scissors. Although I think that a fight to the death at center court, with all of the players circled round, between the officials in question would be much more entertaining that going to the possession arrow.

[Adam]

Originally posted by drothamel
My personal favorite would have to be rock, paper scissors. Although I think that a fight to the death at center court, with all of the players circled round, between the officials in question would be much more entertaining that going to the possession arrow.

Maybe, but the spectators didn't pay to see us.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Snaqwells

Maybe, but the spectators didn't pay to see us.

Good point.

Let the 2 players fight to the death, loser gets the foul.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

And....how do you plan on resolving it, Gordon, if you call a charge and your partner calls a block...and your partner declines to change his call even though you tell him that, of course, you are right? I know that you've said that a blarge could never,ever in a gazillion years possibly occur when you're officiating, but humor me. You're already on record as saying that you won't change your call because to do so would be a "wishy-washy,bureaucratic,kissing your sister, unable to make a decision way to resolve this". Do you and your partner just stand there looking at each other while the players grow old and die, the earth cools and the solar system implodes? What's your solution?

Hey reading is a skill. Wishy-washy etal. is the double foul route. When I have a double whistle my fist goes up (no signal in this case) I find out what my partner has and if we differ we go to primary. If it's my primary and he/she still wants it (assuming we differ) I'll let him/her live or die with the call. If my partner (I trust my partner) feels that strongly perhaps my partner is right and I'm wrong.

[Adam]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Good point.

Let the 2 players fight to the death, loser gets the foul.

But does it have to be the two players involved? Or can the captains pick a fighter?