We had the dreaded "BLARGE"!!

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by Daryl H. Long
Cameron;

I agree with you. My statement applied only to the "blarge" situation I had in mind yet I failed to define it more clearly in my previous post. It wasn't intended as a blanket statement for all situations so thanks for bringing it to my attention.

And JR is right about the real world and how NF has ruled what officials should do when the blarge happens.

As a student of the rules it is my duty to give the NF feedback on their rules interpretations and in fact NF encourages it. I only was stating IMO that the rules committee dropped the ball on this one and gave some reasons why.

But the bottom line is that those of us who are officiating under NFHS rules are bound to enforce the rules as written without prejudice. While I may disagree with NF on some issues I am not at liberty to disreguard their rule and administer the game using my own opinion.

Just looked in my rule and case book can't find blarge.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by gordon30307
[/B]

Just looked in my rule and case book can't find blarge. [/B][/QUOTE]Case book play 4.19.7SitC

[Rich]

Originally posted by NoCall
Is this your first "Blarge"? Being in a regional final it would appear that you woulddn't be calling in someone else's area. Do you do this often? You must stay focused.

This comment always comes up and my response is always this:

Don't the lines denoting primary coverage MEET somewhere on the court? Hell, last week I had a TRIPLE whistle on a shooting foul -- if you looked at the spot on the court, it's where the three primaries come together.

It's not calling in someone else's area that's necessarily the problem, it's two officials not looking for the double whistle situation and just being quick and making two opposite calls.

[OFISHE8]

That is exactly what I did. I felt that Center opposite table had yet to get into a position to make the call. Thus, I came with the call from Lead table side on a semi fast break and from my angle had a charge. He came strong because of our pregame and the discussion we had on coverage areas and drives to the bucket. He saw block and I saw charge. We got together and took our time and made the rulebook "ruling". Do I agree with the rulebook? On some things I do, but we cannot disregard the rulebook in cases like this. It is similar to the situation on a previous post about the Timer starting the clock on an inbounds play when the official mistakenly chops the clock on a pass along the baseline to another teammate out of bounds. Similar situation

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by OFISHE8
That is exactly what I did. I felt that Center opposite table had yet to get into a position to make the call.


This is the classic case of not trusting your partner. If you had a train wreck you could have held your whistle and waited for your partner or you could have blown your whistle with fist up and no signal. I'm hoping you had a double whistle and at the same time you both signalled Block and Charge respectively? If you both had fists up (no signal) and then discussed it I can't believe you settled on a double foul. Also if it's a semi fast break how could you possibly be aware of the Centers position. You should have been refereeing the defense.


Thus, I came with the call from Lead table side on a semi fast break and from my angle had a charge. He came strong because of our pregame and the discussion we had on coverage areas and drives to the bucket.

If Center called it as per your pregame you should have gone with his call. Otherwise why have a pregame.


He saw block and I saw charge. We got together and took our time and made the rulebook "ruling". Do I agree with the rulebook? On some things I do, but we cannot disregard the rulebook in cases like this. It is similar to the situation on a previous post about the Timer starting the clock on an inbounds play when the official mistakenly chops the clock on a pass along the baseline to another teammate out of bounds. Similar situation

Either you as Lead or the Center was wrong. One of you should have backed off. With a double foul you both were wrong.

[TravelinMan]

Originally posted by OFISHE8
Last night in a regional final, we had a block/charge. We had a three man crew, two of which had worked all year together and one was from another part of the state. We all got together after the call and discussed what we were going to do. We had discussed in pre game what was to happen: double foul, go to possesion arrow. We got together, talked about it and went with the double foul, bucket counts, and go to possesion arrow. We told both coaches what we had and what the rule was. They were fine with the decision. I know MTD would probably disagree based on his previous posts pertaining to this topic. I was at fault because in pre game we talked about coverage areas and who follow who on a drive to the bucket. I was Lead table side and felt Center had not gotten back down court quick enough to cover the play--it was semi-fastbreak. Live and learn I guess. We never decided what it actually was, though?

You say both coaches were fine with it. So my guess is the possession arrow was pointing to the team that was defending on the play. Because if the possession arrow was pointing to the offensive team, they get the score and the ball. Now, if I was the other coach I would be a bit upset on a play where one of the officials had it PC, which means bucket doesn't count and I get ball. What do you think?

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by gordon30307

Either you as Lead or the Center was wrong. One of you should have backed off. With a double foul you both were wrong.

But which one?

Pregame does't mean anything once they both signaled.

Both made a call based on their angle and opinion. The play was in transition so the areas were shifting down the court. The entire play is the leads on a fast break no matter who's ultimate "primary" it was in. It only becomes a primary once the official is in position to cover it.

Once the both signaled, who could back off? Either way and one coach could have a very valid complaint that could eventually blow up.

Double foul is the clean and right solution once conflicting signals have been given.

[TravelinMan]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

But which one?

Pregame does't mean anything once they both signaled.

Once the both signaled, who could back off? Either way and one coach could have a very valid complaint that could eventually blow up.

Why not hold up on signal if you can? Put up raised fist but come together to discuss. That way it does not look like either one of you are backing off, even though you may decide to do that. If you are both adamant about the call, then go with the blarge.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

But which one?

Pregame does't mean anything once they both signaled.

Both made a call based on their angle and opinion. The play was in transition so the areas were shifting down the court. The entire play is the leads on a fast break no matter who's ultimate "primary" it was in. It only becomes a primary once the official is in position to cover it.

Once the both signaled, who could back off? Either way and one coach could have a very valid complaint that could eventually blow up.

Double foul is the clean and right solution once conflicting signals have been given.

I disagree. With a double whistle what's the rush in signaling what the type of foul is being called. Fist in the air is what should have been done. Proper mechanic is to get together to discuss. I suspect no indication of of the type of foul was given. Sounds to me that this is a case of not trusting your partner. Note in the original post it was two guys who work togehter frequently with another official from out of state. I suspect the Center was the outsider. Easy explanation to the Coach we agreed in our pregame if this happened it would be Primary's call. Do I expect the Coach to be happy? Probably not.

The crew may have done a great job overall but in my opionion this particular play was handled poorly.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by gordon30307
[/B]

Sounds to me that this is a case of not trusting your partner. [/B][/QUOTE]It's usually a case of both officials trusting themselves. Both think that they got the call right. It ain't a big deal. Just go with the double foul and get the ball back into play asap. You can analyze it from here to next year, but sh*t happens--and to the best of us too.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Sounds to me that this is a case of not trusting your partner. [/B]

It's usually a case of both officials trusting themselves. Both think that they got the call right. It ain't a big deal. Just go with the double foul and get the ball back into play asap. You can analyze it from here to next year, but sh*t happens--and to the best of us too. [/B][/QUOTE]

Can't have a block and a charge on the same play. One is obviously wrong. Best way to handle is to give it to the primary. In this case it seems to be the leads call. Personally if I was one of the officials on this and my partner wanted the call that badly I'd give it to him/her and let him/her live or die with the call.

[QuebecRef87]

Originally posted by gordon30307

It's usually a case of both officials trusting themselves. Both think that they got the call right. It ain't a big deal. Just go with the double foul and get the ball back into play asap. You can analyze it from here to next year, but sh*t happens--and to the best of us too. [/B]

Can't have a block and a charge on the same play. One is obviously wrong. Best way to handle is to give it to the primary. In this case it seems to be the leads call. Personally if I was one of the officials on this and my partner wanted the call that badly I'd give it to him/her and let him/her live or die with the call. [/B][/QUOTE]
Here we go again...

I must say I agree that it's practically impossible to have a block and a charge on the same contact. But if the book says to call a double foul, then just do it. Period.

[Rich]

Originally posted by gordon30307

It's usually a case of both officials trusting themselves. Both think that they got the call right. It ain't a big deal. Just go with the double foul and get the ball back into play asap. You can analyze it from here to next year, but sh*t happens--and to the best of us too. [/B]

Can't have a block and a charge on the same play. One is obviously wrong. Best way to handle is to give it to the primary. In this case it seems to be the leads call. Personally if I was one of the officials on this and my partner wanted the call that badly I'd give it to him/her and let him/her live or die with the call. [/B][/QUOTE]

Why is there a specific case play for this then?

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

Can't have a block and a charge on the same play. One is obviously wrong. Best way to handle is to give it to the primary. In this case it seems to be the leads call. Personally if I was one of the officials on this and my partner wanted the call that badly I'd give it to him/her and let him/her live or die with the call. [/B]

Why is there a specific case play for this then? [/B][/QUOTE]

It's to handle the situation where two Ref's use poor mechanics when a double whistle occurs and neither one wants to back off. It's a way to cover your a**.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by gordon30307
[/B]

Why is there a specific case play for this then? [/B][/QUOTE]

It's to handle the situation where two Ref's use poor mechanics when a double whistle occurs and neither one wants to back off. It's a way to cover your a**. [/B][/QUOTE]Congratulations, Gordon. I've seen NCAA officials who have worked Final Fours be involved in blarges. I've seen it happen to officials that were regarded as some of the all-time greats of our avocation. It's nice to know that there's one official in the country that it would never happen to. Yup, gordon30307. Maybe you could offer your services to the NCAA. You know, go around to all of the conferences and teach their officiating staffs how to avoid blarges.